Early to mid 50s QBs not named Otto Graham

[TanksAndSpartans]

Among this group, I would say the one who is most likely to be found relatively high on one of those best QBs of all-time lists or NFL Films shows is Norm Van Brocklin. Y.A. Tittle pops up sometimes too. I feel Bob Waterfield, who I guess is considered more of a 40s player and Bobby Layne who was the QB on two teams that defeated Graham and the Browns for the title don’t show up as much.

If you had a 50s fantasy draft pick and needed a QB and Graham was off the board, who would you take? I’m leaning towards Waterfield who arguably gives you one of the better options at kicker and punter as well.

I'd also be interested to hear from those that consider Van Brocklin one of the top 20 or so at his position all time. Looking mostly at the written history and some championship game footage, he spent a lot of his career in QB platoons, had one championship game that was one of those nightmare games for a QB (I think it was '55), etc. Is he one of those you had to see over a longer period to appreciate?

[Bryan]

here is what I had posted in a different thread that was regarding Tittle v. Van Brocklin:

Two '2nd tier' all-time QBs, both in the strong HOF class of 1971, with Van Brocklin having to wait longer than Tittle to get into Canton. Two part question...which QB had the better career, and which QB would you choose if you had to win one game?

Both guys had weird careers.

Van Brocklin was revelation with the Rams, leaving school early, going to a team with some offensive talent, and able to put Hamp Pool's multi-WR set theories into practice. Somewhat amazing that he still holds the single-game passing yardage record. His early career features Rate+ seasons of 144 (partial rookie year), 129, 129, 116, 127, 113. Splitting time with Waterfield hurts his career numbers, but Van Brocklin was very effective. Sid Gillman comes along, Van Brocklin gets the team to yet another title game, loses big to the Browns while throwing 6 INTs, and in one of Gillman's "genius" moves Van Brocklin is benched in 1956 for Billy Wade. Van Brocklin is shipped to a terrible Eagles team, where he makes 3 straight pro bowls culminating in the improbable 1960 NFL title and 1960 league MVP honors. Van Brocklin retires as the only QB to win titles with two different teams, which is matched by Peyton Manning, but Manning was kind of along for the ride in his final Bronco season.

Tittle's career arc is also interesting. Starts off in the AAFC, winds up on San Fran, is usually above average in Rate+ with two big years in 1953 & 1957 (127 and 124 Rate+), earning UPI MVP in 1957. The Niners are viewed as perennial underachievers, Tittle ends up getting benched for John Brodie, and is sent to the Giants. Tittle has an even more dramatic turnaround than Van Brocklin with the Eagles, 3 pro bowls, 3 years of MVP honors, 3 title game appearances, and a 1963 season that might have been the best QB season ever at that point in time. Tittle sets and resets the single-season TD mark, and while Van Brocklin has the highest yards game, Tittle might still have the best overall game by a QB....505 yards, 7 TDs, 0 INTs. Tittle plays one season too long, as his 1964 season is a disaster for himself and the Giants.

*How much merit do you give Van Brocklin for winning titles with two different teams?
*Do you think Van Brocklin retired too early? Does that count against him?
*In this comparison, how much does Tittle's lack of championships count against him?
*Does Tittle's run with the Giants elevate him over Van Brocklin?


To answer your question, are you only counting the seasons of 1950-1959? Or is it just a general timeframe? If you aren't counting Tittle's Giants seasons, I don't think there is anyway you could elevate him above Layne/Van Brocklin.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Bryan. I'll count the whole career. I'd take Waterfield (who arguably took two teams to the title as well given what a different era it was in '45) then Layne then Van Brocklin then Tittle and I'm guessing I'm the only one who would have that order. Waterfield like Baugh had some seasons where he did pretty well intercepting passes and then evolved into a successful modern QB as well, but doesn't seem to get much credit.

I get that Van Brocklin gets a lot of credit for taking his second team, the Eagles, to the championship whereas with a QB like Graham or even Brady to get more modern, we don't know what wouldv'e happened had they been thrown into a similar situation because they weren't. But given the platoon, I think Van Brocklin had 1.5 titles so the argument of winning titles with two different teams doesn't hold up for me at least. I perhaps unfairly have Tittle low because of the postseason. I know its a team sport, but the goal is to win championships so when the postseason resume looks really disappointing, I can't ignore it.

[Shipley]

Clearly Jim Finks was the best quarterback of the 50s. After all, the Steelers cut Johnny Unitas so they could keep Finks as their starter!

[ChrisBabcock]

I don't think we would slot him any higher than the top 4 (Graham, Tittle, Layne, Van Brocklin), but where would we say Charlie Conerly would rank in the discussion of 1950s QBs? Probably a solid 5th I’d say.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Here's a discussion on another site comparing Graham and Van Brocklin. I warn you its long though....

http://www.footballperspective.com/tag/ ... -brocklin/

Also, just to clarify, I didn't really mean 50s - I meant Otto Graham's contemporaries and more specifically NFL QBs who were active and at the top of their game at the same time ('50 to '56), so I didn't mean to include Baugh or Unitas, but I'm fine with Waterfield who played in two championship games against Graham, Conerly is a good one, Tobin Rote. And I'm fine with looking at the QB's entire career - not trying to isolate certain seasons.

[MarbleEye]

Like Van Brocklin and Peyton Manning, Tobin Rote also won titles with 2 teams: the 1957 Detroit Lions (to date, their last league/conference title) & the 1963 San Diego Chargers. (one of only 2 league/conference titles in their history). He also QBed a division winner in the 1960 Toronto Argonauts of the CFL. He played a lot of really good football for some not-so-great Green Bay Packer teams in the 1950's. I doubt he is at the top, but he at least belongs in the discussion somewhere.

Warren Moon had a huge passing day of 500+ yards and was taken out of the game. He was asked if he wanted to go back in when it was realized he had a chance to take out Norm Van Brocklin's single game passing yardage record of 554 but he declined.

See this boxscore:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... 160kan.htm

I thought Van Brocklin retired because he had been promised the chance to succeed Buck Shaw as Eagles coach. When negotiations broke down over scouting budget the Eagles were prepared to provide, he took the new Minnesota Vikings coaching job instead.

If Del Shofner holds a strike from Tittle in the 1963 Title Game, the Giants go up 17-7 and probably win the game and the Title. He gets to (probably) retire as a champion ala' Elway and Manning, (and Van Brocklin and Graham too, maybe others?)

[TanksAndSpartans]

I don't think we would slot him any higher than the top 4...

Thanks everyone. I didn't know Rote won a title in the AFL. Chris, I forgot to ask - who is "we" - do you mean the board as a group?

[JuggernautJ]

I have a soft spot for those old Lions teams so it pleases me to see Tobin Rote mentioned.
I think his career is often overlooked.

But if I had to choose one QB from the time frame mentioned I think it would have to be Bobby Lane.
After all, he never lost a game...

http://www.profootballhof.com/players/b ... biography/

[ChrisBabcock]

Chris, I forgot to ask - who is "we" - do you mean the board as a group?

uh. Those of us who consider the Mt. Rushmore of 1960s QBs to be Graham, Layne, Tittle, Van Brocklin. It doesn't have to be unanimous.