Some of the guys on bottom kind of light on "Honors"

[JohnTurney]

Honors are only part of what is often looked at... intangibles, film study, "testimonials" and other things also figure...maybe strength of defense, etc. But still, it seems in 16 years someone can make a First-team All-Pro or two

[Reaser]

You picked him.

[bachslunch]

Thanks for posting, John. Interesting to compare.

I’ve always considered Dean and Dent mistakes, both pass rush first guys with weak honors (2/4/none). Dent’s in because he played forever and got a ton of career sacks, while Dean benefited from the mistaken idea that he was an elephant position pioneer. My understanding was that neither was especially good again the run. Haley looks better as an OLB than a DE, where his 2/5/none honors at least scrape the cutoff point of acceptable (Kevin Greene at 3/5/90s and Andre Tippett at 2/5/80s are both in), though he’s borderline at best (5 ringzz factors in too for what little that’s worth for a non-QB). Bethea made a bunch of second teams and pro bowls, though was never a first team all pro for some odd reason; my understanding is that he looks good on film, though he didn’t get in until his last year eligible, if memory serves.

On the other end of things, it’s surprising to me how long it took Carl Eller (5/6/70s) and Claude Humphrey (5/6/none) to be enshrined. Being pass rush first guys might not have helped, but their honors were plenty good enough. Humphrey played mostly on bad teams which probably didn’t help, while Eller may have been a victim of “too many Vikings already in given that they never won it all,”

Also kind of surprising how few 1st team all pro selections Doug Atkins had (3).

[L.C. Greenwood]

Thanks for posting, John. Interesting to compare.

I’ve always considered Dean and Dent mistakes, both pass rush first guys with weak honors (2/4/none). Dent’s in because he played forever and got a ton of career sacks, while Dean benefited from the mistaken idea that he was an elephant position pioneer. My understanding was that neither was especially good again the run. Haley looks better as an OLB than a DE, where his 2/5/none honors at least scrape the cutoff point of acceptable (Kevin Greene at 3/5/90s and Andre Tippett at 2/5/80s are both in), though he’s borderline at best (5 ringzz factors in too for what little that’s worth for a non-QB). Bethea made a bunch of second teams and pro bowls, though was never a first team all pro for some odd reason; my understanding is that he looks good on film, though he didn’t get in until his last year eligible, if memory serves.

On the other end of things, it’s surprising to me how long it took Carl Eller (5/6/70s) and Claude Humphrey (5/6/none) to be enshrined. Being pass rush first guys might not have helped, but their honors were plenty good enough. Humphrey played mostly on bad teams which probably didn’t help, while Eller may have been a victim of “too many Vikings already in given that they never won it all,”

Also kind of surprising how few 1st team all pro selections Doug Atkins had (3).

I think what really helped Dean and Dent were how they were difference-makers with the Niners and Bears. Light on the individual honors, but that was compensated for on the roles they played on those clubs. There are other players like that who may eventually reach Canton with the Veteran's Committee. I do believe Carl Eller was hurt by his subpar Super Bowl performances. My own feeling is if a player is good enough to be elected to the HOF, it doesn't matter how many other teammates are already there.

[JohnTurney]

Bethea made a bunch of second teams and pro bowls, though was never a first team all pro for some odd reason; my understanding is that he looks good on film, though he didn’t get in until his last year eligible, if memory serves.
________________________
Also kind of surprising how few 1st team all pro selections Doug Atkins had (3).

Atkins was in an era where there was a lot of competition, Marchetti, Brito, Robustelli and so he was Second-team quite a lot. Same with Bethea. Bethea, one of only 3 RDEs in HOF that played in a 3-4 defense, though hopefully, Richard Seymour will join them. Bethea did look good on film to me, anyway and Coach TJ agrees. Both when they were in a 4-3 defense and a 3-4. He stayed square, would reduce to three-technique on occasion. But it is still perplexing why he was never a first-team All-Pro. Doug Atkins was in same spot, in an era with lots of competition but he did break through, though one was in 1963 when the Bears won it all, so the "winning" had to give him a boost, though he was certainly deserving. So Bethea, while a great player, seemed like quite the borderline in terms of HOF. Overall, sure, putting him in is not a big mistake or anything, but when you see the goose egg it raises reasonable questions.

Howie Long is only 3-4 LDE in Hall. (Reggie White did play one year in base 3-4 but in watching that year they were in 4-man line as much as they were a 3-4 and had Bruce Paup on the LOS a lot in the 3-4, so it was not a pure 2-gap 3-4. Youngblood was on one for 2 years at end of his career but neither he or White are known for their work in a 30 defense. Same with Humphrey who played a couple years in a 3-4.

As far as Haley, I disagree, I think he was far more effective as a DE in Dallas than you may be giving him credit for. In SF he as a DE maybe half the time anyway and when he was a LBer he was committed to a gap so he was in effect a stand-up DE, with some but not a lot of coverage responsibilities. In Dallas he was a guy who did get lots of pressures and maybe not the huge number of sacks. He was, when healthy, a difference-maker. The issue is how much did his health limit him?

Robustelli is interesting in that he was a 7-time All-Pro but only 2-time consensus. You could be generous and give him 3 consensus seasons, but that is pushing it. It seems the AP voters liked him.

[Ronfitch]

John - can you add Henry Jordan to the chart?

[JohnTurney]

John - can you add Henry Jordan to the chart?

He's with the DTs like Lilly, Olsen, Page, Greene, etc. , not the DEs.

[JohnTurney]

John - can you add Henry Jordan to the chart?

Here is the DT HOF lsit with a few current and past DTs. Jordan is on it

[bachslunch]

Again, enjoyed seeing this comparison chart, John. Thanks for posting.

Wow — Aaron Donald (3/4/10s?) already has almost as many honors in just four seasons as HoFers Dan Hampton (4/4/80s), Henry Jordan (5/4/none), and Art Donovan (4/5/50s). Definitely on the HoF fast track and then some. Kevin Williams (5/6/00s) should also be a no-brainer, though I haven’t heard his name come up at all in HoF website comment chatter; I hope that’s not indicative of his election likelihood. And though he hasn’t had much in honors recognition lately, Ndamukong Suh (4/5/10s?) just about has enough peak to warrant election.

Joe Klecko (2/4/none) and Bryant Young (2/4/90s) have pretty thin honors compared to the rest of these folks, though my understanding is that they look good in film study. Dr. Z apparently thought highly of them. Fred Smerlas (3/5/none) actually has better honors than either and a long career to go with it and looks pretty competitive with these two.

By honors, the closest to a mistake at the position already elected arguably would be Curley Culp (1/6/none), though he does have a fair number of 2nd team nods plus he’s also got pioneer credit as the first significant nose tackle. Not convinced he was the worst snub available at the time, but I’m okay with him being in. My understanding is that he looks good in film study as well.

John, any idea why it took so long to get Jordan in the HoF? His honors look competitive to other DTs, yet he failed to get elected as a regular candidate and was passed over on his first try as a Senior. Does he look bad in film study or something?

[Bryan]

I’ve always considered Dean and Dent mistakes, both pass rush first guys with weak honors (2/4/none). Dent’s in because he played forever and got a ton of career sacks, while Dean benefited from the mistaken idea that he was an elephant position pioneer. My understanding was that neither was especially good again the run. Haley looks better as an OLB than a DE, where his 2/5/none honors at least scrape the cutoff point of acceptable (Kevin Greene at 3/5/90s and Andre Tippett at 2/5/80s are both in), though he’s borderline at best (5 ringzz factors in too for what little that’s worth for a non-QB). Bethea made a bunch of second teams and pro bowls, though was never a first team all pro for some odd reason; my understanding is that he looks good on film, though he didn’t get in until his last year eligible, if memory serves.

On the other end of things, it’s surprising to me how long it took Carl Eller (5/6/70s) and Claude Humphrey (5/6/none) to be enshrined. Being pass rush first guys might not have helped, but their honors were plenty good enough. Humphrey played mostly on bad teams which probably didn’t help, while Eller may have been a victim of “too many Vikings already in given that they never won it all,”

Also kind of surprising how few 1st team all pro selections Doug Atkins had (3).

I think Dean was a mistake. It would be interesting to compare his career sack total to a guy like Gastineau or even Fred Dryer. There is nothing better than watching old Air Coryell Charger games, and 1979-1980 Fred Dean stands out, but there just isn't enough substance to pin on the 'legend', IMO. 1984 is the classic Fred Dean season. I think that in order to believe Dean is a HOFer, you have to believe that the Niners don't win the Super Bowl in 1981 or 1984 without Dean...and I think the Niners win in 1984 regardless of Dean's presence. JMO.

Dent was an incredible athlete. Very up and down in his career. Dent was fine against the run, but just kind of lazy. I was surprised he was inducted into the HOF, but I think at the peak of his powers/effort, Dent was a HOF talent.

I remember way back when, Bob Carroll would complain every year that neither Carl Eller nor Lynn Swann were in the HOF. Swann's stats were questionable, but there really wasn't any reason to not vote for Eller. I think he and Youngblood were the class of the 1970's DEs. Youngblood also had to wait a long time to get into the HOF, so perhaps the DE position group was an afterthought for that time period. I think Humphrey had more question marks about his worthiness...perhaps his resurgence with the Eagles got him over the 'tipping point'.

As for Atkins, I think Marchetti was a lock at one DE for 1st Team All Pro, so then you had everyone else fighting for the other spot. Its interesting to me how good some of these old DEs were at the end of their careers. They weren't just pass-rush specialists, either. Atkins was dominant with the expansion Saints, Youngblood was very effective as a strongside 3-4 DE. I won't say that Atkins and Ford were 'better' than Marchetti and Robustelli, but when you watch Marchetti/Robustelli you see great football players making plays, whereas Atkins/Ford are like athletic freaks. Just a different type of thing.