Nice to see Kramer take his spot.

[JohnTurney]

He had a couple of years where he was close to being on the majority, but never a clear consensus choice...

What do you think of Tom Mack's HOF worthiness? Was he deserving in your opinion?

Better player than Upshaw, who the guards of the 1970s (Little, Keuch, Joe D, Hannah) think was way, way overrated. I think Mack was a very good guard from 1967-75 or so. Seemed to slow down and hold a lot from 1976. Not sure he was worthy of Pro Bowls in 1977 and 1978.... especially 1978. Knees wetn on him in mid-1970s. Better at pulling and at pass protection, but not the drive blocker Hannah, Joe D or Keuch was. In some ways similar to Little, Kramer... rams called their sweeps 38 and 39... and he was great at those. Rams were not a trap team at the time, though all teams ran all plays, but for example the Steelers were a "trap team" Rams a drive and sweep team. He was very smart, though. Knew what to do on every play. Maybe that is how he got my after his knees limited his mobility

But yeah, he was five-time All-Pro and in my view 8-9 legit Pro Bowls on high end, 7-8 on low end...early in career was a superior athlete to most guards, 6-3, 250 and could run very will. Don't know his 40 time, but would guess at 5.0 or so. And naturally strong. So I would say he's a HOFer. But if i were drafting an all-time team there are quite a few guards I'd take before him

[Bryan]

Better player than Upshaw, who the guards of the 1970s (Little, Keuch, Joe D, Hannah) think was way, way overrated. I think Mack was a very good guard from 1967-75 or so. Seemed to slow down and hold a lot from 1976.

Thanks for the breakdown of Mack. One random thing that I remember is the Rams had an uncharacteristically terrible game in 1976 against the Niners, where Cleveland Elam beat Tom Mack for something like 10 sacks of James Harris.

As for Upshaw, I recall Ron Wolf talking about that great 1970's Raiders offensive line, and he implied that the foundation of that group was Shell at LT and Vella at RT, with Upshaw being a nice OG but not as important as Vella. Upshaw had a reputation as being the most notorious holder in the NFL (witness Upshaw's takedown of Jerry Robinson in SB XV on the TD pass to Kenny King, which is only slightly less blatant than Marvin's takedown of Carl Hairston), but that didn't seem to hurt his pro bowl appearances or his LOTY awards.

[SixtiesFan]

Better player than Upshaw, who the guards of the 1970s (Little, Keuch, Joe D, Hannah) think was way, way overrated. I think Mack was a very good guard from 1967-75 or so. Seemed to slow down and hold a lot from 1976.

Thanks for the breakdown of Mack. One random thing that I remember is the Rams had an uncharacteristically terrible game in 1976 against the Niners, where Cleveland Elam beat Tom Mack for something like 10 sacks of James Harris.

As for Upshaw, I recall Ron Wolf talking about that great 1970's Raiders offensive line, and he implied that the foundation of that group was Shell at LT and Vella at RT, with Upshaw being a nice OG but not as important as Vella. Upshaw had a reputation as being the most notorious holder in the NFL (witness Upshaw's takedown of Jerry Robinson in SB XV on the TD pass to Kenny King, which is only slightly less blatant than Marvin's takedown of Carl Hairston), but that didn't seem to hurt his pro bowl appearances or his LOTY awards.

In that 1976 MNF game the 49ers beat the Rams 16-0. I recall DE Tommy Hart had a big game beating an OT, not OG Tom Mack. In addition to 10 sacks, the 49er DL drew several holding penalties that night.

[SixtiesFan]

A question if I may. Why did it take so long for Jerry Kramer to be voted into the HOF?

[bachslunch]

A question if I may. Why did it take so long for Jerry Kramer to be voted into the HOF?

Speculating:

-his book “Instant Replay”may have ruffled some feathers.

-he missed most of 1964 and some of 1961 to injury.

-some voters, like Dr. Z, apparently weren’t sufficiently impressed with his level of play. Remembered reading somewhere that some voters thought his teammate Fuzzy Thurston was more accomplished, but no idea how true that was. Kramer’s weakness, given what the film study report at Ken Crippen’s site suggests, appears to have been pass blocking — so his game was not flawless. He was reportedly extremely good as a blocker on screen passes and running plays and was an excellent pulling guard, though.

-he may have been a victim of Packer overload. He is now the 12th starter on those 60s championship Packer teams elected to the HoF.

-despite having been a 5 time 1st team all pro and appearing on the all 60s decade team, he only made 3 pro bowls.