Packers' all-time Hall of Fame team

[rhickok1109]

John and Ralph - great answers - I really appreciate it. I’ve always wanted to discuss this. (I have John’s book on numbers - Ralph, I’ll put your book on my list)

One thing that didn’t come up is whatever the origin of the lineups that we see in old newspapers, I think they were “loose” with distinguishing between LH and Q. From what I’ve read on Potsy Clark, he was committed to the single-wing, but a lot of times, the tailback, Dutch Clark is listed as “Q” in the box score. I think that’s just a result of someone not being accurate or maybe just thinking the player who takes the snap is the quarterback? Have others noticed this for other teams?

In obvious passing formations, virtually all teams, including the Packers, used the short punt formation.

The team that comes to mind for me is Canton with Jim Thorpe and Milt Ghee. I would think Thorpe knew the single-wing from Warner at Carlisle, but Ghee actually put up some good passing numbers. So maybe when it was time to pass, they just lined up in a short punt formation and Ghee took the snap. When they wanted to run, Thorpe would take it as the tailback. One deficiency I see is Ghee wasn’t a big guy (even for the era), so probably not ideal to line up at blocking back… For any team in this situation, Massillon with Dorais in the backfield, Dayton with Al Mahrt in the backfield, the single-wing doesn’t seem like a great fit for the personnel. (I'm referring to backs whose greatest asset was passing, but may not have been considered strong blockers or runners.)

For pre-NFL teams, 20s, 30s, etc. I wonder how many teams there are where it could be documented what they did on offense - Packers (see posts above), Bears (T), Giants (A formation), for the Spartans I have a book by Potsy Clark with actual plays. But for most teams I look at the box score and read the newspaper write up, but without knowing what formations the team ran, its hard to picture what happened.

I've always kind of wondered about that. Clark was consistently listed as a QB on All-Pro teams and the HOF also labels him a QB.

Some coaches considered the player who called the signals to be the QB, no matter where he lined up. I wonder if that was true of Clark?

[TanksAndSpartans]

Some coaches considered the player who called the signals to be the QB, no matter where he lined up. I wonder if that was true of Clark?

I see what you're saying, there's a Dutch Clark interview where he mentions that he called the signals rather than the QB even though he was the tailback. And I think there's a number of players - Baugh, Friedman, etc. that history remembers as QBs even if they may have actually played a lot of tailback. That doesn't bother me - where I think information is lost is when you look at a box score and it lists a Q and a LH and I have to scratch my head and wonder about it. Let's take the Spartans:

Q Dutch Clark
LH Lumpkin

I kind of know this is wrong whenever I see it because I know Lumpkin was a blocking back and Clark was a tailback. It's led me to believe, that even by the standards of the time, the player that was taking snaps and throwing passes was at least sometimes just pencilled in as the QB. If the HOF or whoever calls someone a QB who was really a TB, I can understand, but when the contemporary game report does the same thing, it makes me wonder where they really played.

The nice thing about accurate box scores to me is that they often reveal the formation. With Washington for example, when I see Riley Smith as QB and Baugh as LH, I kind of know they were using the single wing. Had it been the other way around, I don't know for sure - I have to think - what year is it?, etc.

[JeffreyMiller]

... btw, who is Elliott Harrison?

Elliott Harrison is a writer for nfl.com.

I know, I was joking ... since he's not a member of our venerable association.

[Bob Gill]

I see what you're saying, there's a Dutch Clark interview where he mentions that he called the signals rather than the QB even though he was the tailback. And I think there's a number of players - Baugh, Friedman, etc. that history remembers as QBs even if they may have actually played a lot of tailback.

I think that's exactly right about Dutch Clark -- that he was (virtually always) listed as a QB because he called the signals. Friedman, too.

As for formations teams used in pre-NFL days, I'm pretty sure the Detroit Heralds were using the T formation throughout what you might call the Thorpe years.

[JeffreyMiller]

I see what you're saying, there's a Dutch Clark interview where he mentions that he called the signals rather than the QB even though he was the tailback. And I think there's a number of players - Baugh, Friedman, etc. that history remembers as QBs even if they may have actually played a lot of tailback.

I think that's exactly right about Dutch Clark -- that he was (virtually always) listed as a QB because he called the signals. Friedman, too.

As for formations teams used in pre-NFL days, I'm pretty sure the Detroit Heralds were using the T formation throughout what you might call the Thorpe years.

I believe the buffalo all Americans also used the T at some point

[TanksAndSpartans]

I see what you're saying, there's a Dutch Clark interview where he mentions that he called the signals rather than the QB even though he was the tailback. And I think there's a number of players - Baugh, Friedman, etc. that history remembers as QBs even if they may have actually played a lot of tailback.

I think that's exactly right about Dutch Clark -- that he was (virtually always) listed as a QB because he called the signals. Friedman, too.

As for formations teams used in pre-NFL days, I'm pretty sure the Detroit Heralds were using the T formation throughout what you might call the Thorpe years.

I believe the buffalo all Americans also used the T at some point

Thanks guys. Great info!.

Bob, have you written about the Heralds at all?

I'm yet to bite the bullet on any paid newspaper subscriptions, but I'm getting closer because I want to look into some pre-NFL Heralds games. I didn't find anything searching PFRA articles.

[Bob Gill]

Bob, have you written about the Heralds at all?

I'm yet to bite the bullet on any paid newspaper subscriptions, but I'm getting closer because I want to look into some pre-NFL Heralds games. I didn't find anything searching PFRA articles.

I'm pretty sure I've never written any articles about the Heralds. I do have information about most of their games from about 1914-19 -- generally just a line score and maybe the lineup. I tended to skip games against teams that weren't part of the big-time pro circuit, the kind of teams that the Heralds would beat 50-0. If that's the kind of thing you're interested in, send me your e-mail and I'll try to put it into a workable form.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Bob, have you written about the Heralds at all?

I'm yet to bite the bullet on any paid newspaper subscriptions, but I'm getting closer because I want to look into some pre-NFL Heralds games. I didn't find anything searching PFRA articles.

I'm pretty sure I've never written any articles about the Heralds. I do have information about most of their games from about 1914-19 -- generally just a line score and maybe the lineup. I tended to skip games against teams that weren't part of the big-time pro circuit, the kind of teams that the Heralds would beat 50-0. If that's the kind of thing you're interested in, send me your e-mail and I'll try to put it into a workable form.

Thanks Bob - I'm thinking of telling the story of their '17 season which was a pretty good one (and I don't think has shown up in Coffin Corner). I'll let you know if I need any help with it.

[Bob Gill]

I'm thinking of telling the story of their '17 season which was a pretty good one (and I don't think has shown up in Coffin Corner).

Good choice. I think there's a good chance that the Heralds were the second-best team in pro football that year, after only the Bulldogs.

[rhickok1109]

Bob, have you written about the Heralds at all?

I'm yet to bite the bullet on any paid newspaper subscriptions, but I'm getting closer because I want to look into some pre-NFL Heralds games. I didn't find anything searching PFRA articles.

I'm pretty sure I've never written any articles about the Heralds. I do have information about most of their games from about 1914-19 -- generally just a line score and maybe the lineup. I tended to skip games against teams that weren't part of the big-time pro circuit, the kind of teams that the Heralds would beat 50-0. If that's the kind of thing you're interested in, send me your e-mail and I'll try to put it into a workable form.

It's really great the way knowledgeable PFRA members are willing to share their research and expertise!