Packers' all-time Hall of Fame team

[rhickok1109]

It's not totally clear how this team was chosen, but it appears to have been an online poll conducted by the packersnews.com

Johnny Blood showed up 9th among RBs, under the name of John McNally. I think they should have listed him as wide receiver

http://content.packersnews.com/packersn ... position=C

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports ... 785899001/

[JeffreyMiller]

Every time I see one of these "all-time" teams I wonder who the panelists were. Always seems to be folks I don't know or never heard of ... btw, who is Elliott Harrison?

[rhickok1109]

Every time I see one of these "all-time" teams I wonder who the panelists were. Always seems to be folks I don't know or never heard of ... btw, who is Elliott Harrison?

I'm not totally sure, but I think anyone who visited packernews.com was allowed to vote on this team. Voters were actually asked to build a roster of Packer HOF members. Here's a link to the ballot:

http://content.packersnews.com/packersn ... r_legends/

Elliott Harrison is a writer for nfl.com.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Johnny Blood showed up 9th among RBs

9th seems really low. The two-way players always get the short end of the stick in these things. Off the top of my head, I would say the all-time Packers two-way team is something like:

E: Hutson, Dilweg
T: Hubbard, Buck
G: Michaleske, Goldenberg
C: Earp
Q: Herber
H: Blood, Lewellen
F: Hinkle

[ChrisBabcock]

Kind of surprised Michalske is only 6th on the guard list with 6% of the vote.

[rhickok1109]

Johnny Blood showed up 9th among RBs

9th seems really low. The two-way players always get the short end of the stick in these things. Off the top of my head, I would say the all-time Packers two-way team is something like:

E: Hutson, Dilweg
T: Hubbard, Buck
G: Michaleske, Goldenberg
C: Earp
Q: Herber
H: Blood, Lewellen
F: Hinkle

That looks pretty good to me, but I'd be tempted to put Red Dunn at QB, since that was his actual position. Herber's often listed as a QB because he was a passer, but he was actually a single-wing tailback most of the time, like Lewellen.

[TanksAndSpartans]

That looks pretty good to me, but I'd be tempted to put Red Dunn at QB, since that was his actual position. Herber's often listed as a QB because he was a passer, but he was actually a single-wing tailback most of the time, like Lewellen.

Thank you. I agree with your points. I'd drop Lewellen then and make the backs Dunn, Blood, Herber, and Hinkle. I also considered Lambeau, but I like that Dunn was integral to some of the title teams. In my head I was using the T formation since it just makes things easier and easier to relate to people who think of the positions in modern terms.

One thing I've never been clear on... In a critical game against the Spartans in 30', Dunn threw a game tying TD pass (game ended 6-6). He was the quarterback or blocking back and Lewellen was the LH or tailback. So Lewellen should be getting the snaps. How does Dunn wind up throwing that pass? Did they run the T for that play? Did they line up in the single-wing and Dunn just slid under center and grabbed the snap?

[John Maxymuk]

With the Notre Dame Box, the offense comes out in a T and shifts to something resembling the single wing but with a balanced line. In the years that Dunn was there, Lambeau had them stay in the T most of the time and Dunn got most of the snaps under center. The other backs would also get snaps, but not under center when Dunn was in the game.

[rhickok1109]

That looks pretty good to me, but I'd be tempted to put Red Dunn at QB, since that was his actual position. Herber's often listed as a QB because he was a passer, but he was actually a single-wing tailback most of the time, like Lewellen.

Thank you. I agree with your points. I'd drop Lewellen then and make the backs Dunn, Blood, Herber, and Hinkle. I also considered Lambeau, but I like that Dunn was integral to some of the title teams. In my head I was using the T formation since it just makes things easier and easier to relate to people who think of the positions in modern terms.

One thing I've never been clear on... In a critical game against the Spartans in 30', Dunn threw a game tying TD pass (game ended 6-6). He was the quarterback or blocking back and Lewellen was the LH or tailback. So Lewellen should be getting the snaps. How does Dunn wind up throwing that pass? Did they run the T for that play? Did they line up in the single-wing and Dunn just slid under center and grabbed the snap?

The Packers used the Notre Dame shift, which Lambeau had learned in his one season playing for Rockne. They lined up in what we now call the full house T, although the QB wasn't directly behind the center; he was between the center and the right guard and about a yard deep. From the T, they could shift into any of three formations. The line was balanced, so the strength of the formation was determined by how the backs shifted (much as today a team might offset the fullback to the right or left).

But they could also run plays directly from the T, without shifting. The Packers (and Rockne, and Jess Harper before Rockne) could run play action passes from the T, with the QB getting the ball on a little flip pass from the center, faking a handoff and throwing, just as is done today.

In the Notre Dame Box, which was the formation that the team shifted into most often, the QB could also take a direct snap. He was a little farther to the right and a little farther back than in the T formation. When the QB passed from the box formation, the play usually started with the tailback pretending to the snap and making it look like a running play while the QB could drop back and look for a receiver.

In obvious passing formations, virtually all teams, including the Packers, used the short punt formation. Any one of the players could line up as the tailback to throw the ball. Llewellen, Blood, and others sometimes played tailback and threw from the short punt formation, but the passer was usually Dunn. He was the Packers' primary passer throughout his career with them.

Another thing about the Notre Dame shift, as Rockne explains in his book on coaching, was that it wasn't easy for the defense to see exactly who the backs were or what they were doing when they shifted, which is the main reason that Rockne preferred it to the single wing. The player who was usually the QB could sometimes line up at left halfback and shift into the tailback position.

It's probably worth noting that Gus Dorais was the Notre Dame QB in 1913, when he completed 14 of 17 passes in the 35-13 win over Army that put Notre Dame on the national map.

Fort the record, here's what Johnny Blood told me about Dunn: “Red Dunn could throw the ball as well as anybody at the time. Benny Friedman was considered the best pro passer then, because he had the big college reputation, but every time we played the Giants, Red outplayed Benny, as far as I’m concerned." (from p. 96 of my book, Vagabond Halfback: The Saga of Johnny Blood McNally.

[TanksAndSpartans]

John and Ralph - great answers - I really appreciate it. I’ve always wanted to discuss this. (I have John’s book on numbers - Ralph, I’ll put your book on my list)

One thing that didn’t come up is whatever the origin of the lineups that we see in old newspapers, I think they were “loose” with distinguishing between LH and Q. From what I’ve read on Potsy Clark, he was committed to the single-wing, but a lot of times, the tailback, Dutch Clark is listed as “Q” in the box score. I think that’s just a result of someone not being accurate or maybe just thinking the player who takes the snap is the quarterback? Have others noticed this for other teams?

In obvious passing formations, virtually all teams, including the Packers, used the short punt formation.

The team that comes to mind for me is Canton with Jim Thorpe and Milt Ghee. I would think Thorpe knew the single-wing from Warner at Carlisle, but Ghee actually put up some good passing numbers. So maybe when it was time to pass, they just lined up in a short punt formation and Ghee took the snap. When they wanted to run, Thorpe would take it as the tailback. One deficiency I see is Ghee wasn’t a big guy (even for the era), so probably not ideal to line up at blocking back… For any team in this situation, Massillon with Dorais in the backfield, Dayton with Al Mahrt in the backfield, the single-wing doesn’t seem like a great fit for the personnel. (I'm referring to backs whose greatest asset was passing, but may not have been considered strong blockers or runners.)

For pre-NFL teams, 20s, 30s, etc. I wonder how many teams there are where it could be documented what they did on offense - Packers (see posts above), Bears (T), Giants (A formation), for the Spartans I have a book by Potsy Clark with actual plays. But for most teams I look at the box score and read the newspaper write up, but without knowing what formations the team ran, its hard to picture what happened.