Ryan Leaf
Re: Ryan Leaf
When I look back on the 98 draft, it seemed to me that NFL talent evaluators were obsessed with downgrading Moss over past sins, but they didn't seem to pick up on any red flags that Leaf had.
Re: Ryan Leaf
To be fair, Moss's transgressions were much harder to ignore. I believe he was arrested for taking part in a brawl, which cost him a chance to play at Notre Dame, and then a positive marijuana test got him kicked out of FSU.
Leaf had never had any trouble with the law or drugs, before or during his career. As a QB, he certainly would be held to a higher standard, but his maturity issues were not as black and white as Moss's.
Leaf had never had any trouble with the law or drugs, before or during his career. As a QB, he certainly would be held to a higher standard, but his maturity issues were not as black and white as Moss's.
Re: Ryan Leaf
From/live in the Great State of Washington so I saw Leaf playing all the time and heard a bunch of second-hand stories from friends brothers who went to Wazzu. I was on the other side of the state so by the time it got to me who knows how many details could have been changed but a favorite for people to tell was about some campus/student party where they were charging $5 - to pay for alcohol - to get in and Leaf showed up and said something along the lines of, "I'm Ryan Leaf, I'm not paying to get in a party" and shoved people aside and drank all their beer. I didn't think much of it, just an anecdote. This was while he was in college and the stories were always told in a way as if it was confirming he was a giant a-hole. Maybe they were on to something. I always took the stories as, "of course he's like that, he's a college QB."
As for what I thought they would be coming out of college and going into the NFL.
Manning reminded me of QB's that were always at the QB camps I was at during that time (I was a middle school QB when they were in college). The ones who took coaching extremely literal and would over-emphasize drops, footwork, throwing motion, etc. Almost a football equivalent to a "brown nose" or "teachers pet". His footwork and how he played - though obviously he made it work - looked exactly like every kid I saw that tried to do it how you're 'supposed to'. So forced, unnatural, attempting to be robotic and other than in Manning's eventual case so not perfected that they looked goofy. Usually those were the worst QB's and always annoyed the rest of us.
I also didn't think he had a great arm and didn't think he had any playmaking ability/get outside the pocket and make throws, etc. I did think he did or would have the football IQ, which was fairly obvious and I was a big believer even then that it was a huge advantage as a QB. Kind of thought of him as an average to above average 10-year NFL starting QB or maybe start for 6-8 years then finish as a premier backup QB. We can never know work ethic and I probably should have stuck to my guns more on football IQ/mind. I would have projected that better but I kind of thought he was what he was coming out of college - going back to he had already had essentially a lifetime of fundamentals and he still looked/played like that. Wasn't really thinking he'd get much better, change or be any different.
The other two kinds of QB's you would run into at QB camps were the ones who knew how you were 'supposed' to do it but would also just "play football". Almost always a small group and almost always the clear best QB's, cared less about impressing people with proper footwork and more about winning. The last group were the ones who didn't know and could never learn how you're 'supposed' to do it and were just bad QB's, except the once in a while good athlete that could get by with some attribute (arm strength, etc). I thought of Leaf as somewhere in-between those. He could be fundamental and make throws, though I laugh thinking about how many times I saw him throw standing on one-foot, but was at his best slinging it around and making plays (and he did have a good and in WA a famous group of WR's - for the college level). The way he played was cocky, too. I didn't think he was as good as Bledsoe was coming out (who I also saw entire college career and knew better since he also played HS in WA) and didn't think he'd be as good as Bledsoe in the NFL. I thought he was going to be someone who could have a huge (stats wise) game one week and a horrible game the next. At the extremes. Though, like most I assume, i thought there was a lot of upside/room to improve and a good base of natural talent.
Overall, mostly I thought Woodson was the best player in the draft. Besides that I was rooting for Leaf over Manning because Leaf played for the Cougs and Manning's trying so hard to be a robot but instead looking goofy style annoyed me.
As for what I thought they would be coming out of college and going into the NFL.
Manning reminded me of QB's that were always at the QB camps I was at during that time (I was a middle school QB when they were in college). The ones who took coaching extremely literal and would over-emphasize drops, footwork, throwing motion, etc. Almost a football equivalent to a "brown nose" or "teachers pet". His footwork and how he played - though obviously he made it work - looked exactly like every kid I saw that tried to do it how you're 'supposed to'. So forced, unnatural, attempting to be robotic and other than in Manning's eventual case so not perfected that they looked goofy. Usually those were the worst QB's and always annoyed the rest of us.
I also didn't think he had a great arm and didn't think he had any playmaking ability/get outside the pocket and make throws, etc. I did think he did or would have the football IQ, which was fairly obvious and I was a big believer even then that it was a huge advantage as a QB. Kind of thought of him as an average to above average 10-year NFL starting QB or maybe start for 6-8 years then finish as a premier backup QB. We can never know work ethic and I probably should have stuck to my guns more on football IQ/mind. I would have projected that better but I kind of thought he was what he was coming out of college - going back to he had already had essentially a lifetime of fundamentals and he still looked/played like that. Wasn't really thinking he'd get much better, change or be any different.
The other two kinds of QB's you would run into at QB camps were the ones who knew how you were 'supposed' to do it but would also just "play football". Almost always a small group and almost always the clear best QB's, cared less about impressing people with proper footwork and more about winning. The last group were the ones who didn't know and could never learn how you're 'supposed' to do it and were just bad QB's, except the once in a while good athlete that could get by with some attribute (arm strength, etc). I thought of Leaf as somewhere in-between those. He could be fundamental and make throws, though I laugh thinking about how many times I saw him throw standing on one-foot, but was at his best slinging it around and making plays (and he did have a good and in WA a famous group of WR's - for the college level). The way he played was cocky, too. I didn't think he was as good as Bledsoe was coming out (who I also saw entire college career and knew better since he also played HS in WA) and didn't think he'd be as good as Bledsoe in the NFL. I thought he was going to be someone who could have a huge (stats wise) game one week and a horrible game the next. At the extremes. Though, like most I assume, i thought there was a lot of upside/room to improve and a good base of natural talent.
Overall, mostly I thought Woodson was the best player in the draft. Besides that I was rooting for Leaf over Manning because Leaf played for the Cougs and Manning's trying so hard to be a robot but instead looking goofy style annoyed me.
Re: Ryan Leaf
I liked Manning over Leaf at the time, simply because Manning had consistently produced in a tough SEC conference. I never thought Leaf would collapse the way he did, though. I saw him play in college (once), and he could stand in front of a rush and throw accurately downfield. I thought he'd do well in the NFL.
Looking back, the PAC10 was really garbage at that time in 1997. It was post Washington Huskies 'dynasty', but prior to USC and Oregon taking off as powerhouses. In addition to Leaf looking like a top NFL QB, you had guys like Cade McNown at UCLA and Akilli Smith at Oregon putting up big numbers and becoming their own 'draft bust' stories. Perhaps the poor competition made Leaf look better than he really was in college.
Looking back, the PAC10 was really garbage at that time in 1997. It was post Washington Huskies 'dynasty', but prior to USC and Oregon taking off as powerhouses. In addition to Leaf looking like a top NFL QB, you had guys like Cade McNown at UCLA and Akilli Smith at Oregon putting up big numbers and becoming their own 'draft bust' stories. Perhaps the poor competition made Leaf look better than he really was in college.
Re: Ryan Leaf
The conference was really volatile then. Wouldn't say garbage, produced good teams but there was definitely a number of draft busts. It was really interesting because you never knew who would win the conference (& goto the Rose Bowl). Teams were at the top one year then at the bottom the next. Lot of one-year wonder teams during those years, too. Before Leaf there was Plummer - and Brad Otton was an NFL style QB, too. Probably would have stuck around for a while but he had a pre-existing injury and couldn't pass a physical, then surgery and re-injury. He was also was the QB of the Pac10's only post-UW NC Rose Bowl win of the 90's. Though most of those Rose Bowl games were really good games (e.g. the Plummer ASU-OSU game and UCLA-Wisconsin). Even up to Pete Carroll's USC teams winning their first NC there was teams that should have played for the NC - including that first NC team - but of course the BCS was all jacked up.Bryan wrote:Looking back, the PAC10 was really garbage at that time in 1997. It was post Washington Huskies 'dynasty', but prior to USC and Oregon taking off as powerhouses. In addition to Leaf looking like a top NFL QB, you had guys like Cade McNown at UCLA and Akilli Smith at Oregon putting up big numbers and becoming their own 'draft bust' stories. Perhaps the poor competition made Leaf look better than he really was in college.
Re: Ryan Leaf
I remember Washington being pre-season #1 that year by one magazine. Corey Dillon left for the NFL, but they had QB Brock Huard, WR Jerome Pathon, TE Cam Cleeland, and S Tony Parrish, among others. A tough 27-14 loss to Nebraska at home in September hurt their title hopes, but they were 7-1 before dropping their last three regular season games (Oregon, @UCLA, @Leaf and Wazzu). They finished 8-4 after their bowl win over Mich. State.Bryan wrote:I liked Manning over Leaf at the time, simply because Manning had consistently produced in a tough SEC conference. I never thought Leaf would collapse the way he did, though. I saw him play in college (once), and he could stand in front of a rush and throw accurately downfield. I thought he'd do well in the NFL.
Looking back, the PAC10 was really garbage at that time in 1997. It was post Washington Huskies 'dynasty', but prior to USC and Oregon taking off as powerhouses. In addition to Leaf looking like a top NFL QB, you had guys like Cade McNown at UCLA and Akilli Smith at Oregon putting up big numbers and becoming their own 'draft bust' stories. Perhaps the poor competition made Leaf look better than he really was in college.
Re: Ryan Leaf
While I doubt it would have made a difference long-term, Leaf didn't have nearly as many weapons at the skill positions as Manning. Peyton had Faulk, who had been quiet for a year and a half, but had re-emerged in the second half of 1997, and came close to a double 1,000 yard season. Marvin Harrison had been a respectable performer his first two seasons; he certainly was on the upswing. Manning also had Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard at TE. The biggest shortcoming for Indy was the offensive line, especially when their best lineman in 1997, Tony Mandarich, suffered a career ending injury. But with Manning's internal clock in his head, a mediocre offensive line was not a big deal... similar to Dan Marino.
In San Diego, Natrone Means was a weapon at RB, but once he got injured, he was either out or ineffective for the remainder of the year. Terrell Fletcher could catch the ball out of the backfield, but he was a homeless man 's Marshall Faulk.
The Chargers did have a strong defense for Leaf, but they traded their best offensive weapon, Tony Martin, to Atlanta in the summer of 1998; Martin had led the league in touchdown catches in 1996, and would go on to record over 1,000 yards for the NFC Champion Falcons. Leaf was stuck throwing to Bryan Still, Charlie Jones, and a tweener WR/TE in Mikhail Ricks. San Diego was limited in their attempts to rebuild because of a shortage of draft picks, even before the massive trade for Leaf. Bobby Bethard had an unfortunate habit of trading next year's first rounder for a 2nd round pick in the current draft. He did this in 1995, 1996, and 1998, costing San Diego first round picks in 1996, 1997, and 2000, and of course, they had traded their 1999 #1 pick to Arizona to move up and select Leaf. And the players that San Diego selected with these 2nd rounders? The aforementioned Fletcher, Still, and Ricks. Yikes! I believe these choices and reaches should do more to stain Beathard 's legacy than the Leaf selection alone.
In San Diego, Natrone Means was a weapon at RB, but once he got injured, he was either out or ineffective for the remainder of the year. Terrell Fletcher could catch the ball out of the backfield, but he was a homeless man 's Marshall Faulk.
The Chargers did have a strong defense for Leaf, but they traded their best offensive weapon, Tony Martin, to Atlanta in the summer of 1998; Martin had led the league in touchdown catches in 1996, and would go on to record over 1,000 yards for the NFC Champion Falcons. Leaf was stuck throwing to Bryan Still, Charlie Jones, and a tweener WR/TE in Mikhail Ricks. San Diego was limited in their attempts to rebuild because of a shortage of draft picks, even before the massive trade for Leaf. Bobby Bethard had an unfortunate habit of trading next year's first rounder for a 2nd round pick in the current draft. He did this in 1995, 1996, and 1998, costing San Diego first round picks in 1996, 1997, and 2000, and of course, they had traded their 1999 #1 pick to Arizona to move up and select Leaf. And the players that San Diego selected with these 2nd rounders? The aforementioned Fletcher, Still, and Ricks. Yikes! I believe these choices and reaches should do more to stain Beathard 's legacy than the Leaf selection alone.
Re: Ryan Leaf
Would it be safe to say that pre-draft, Manning looked like a possible Ken Anderson type of QB -- technically correct, safe, scholarly, and polished, while Leaf benefited from the success and appeal of Brett Favre playing the gunslinging, fun-loving, follow-no-rules QB. I think GMs may have been a touch scared of passing up another potential Favre, and thus saw some of Leaf's riskiness as worth the chance. Just a thought.