HOF Finalists named

[Ness]

Oh and Warner? Just...no. Guy seems like a nice, good guy. But I think he got in partly because of his story of going from rags to riches, being nice, and also now working within the media to a large capacity. He had three great years from 1999-2001. Then he messed up his hand, played awful in 2002. Marc Bulger replaces him full time by 2003. Warner then goes on to have five straight lackluster seasons of football before finally rebounding in 2007 to 2009. Warner was at a point in his career where he was fighting for a starting job with Matt Leinart, whom the Cardinals had drafted one year after signing Warner.

There is the doughnut in Warner's career from 02-06, that is undeniable, and his career was also short because he was 28 before he got the starting job in St. Louis, however:

-He led one of the most diverse and prolific offenses in pro football history,
-He had (at the time) two of the greatest passing seasons ever, which still 15 years later still look really impressive
-He was a 2 time NFL MVP. A list of all other players who have won multiple AP NFL MVP's - Peyton Manning (5), Brett Favre (3), Steve Young (2), Joe Montana (2), Steve Young (2), Aaron Rodgers (2).
-He took two franchises who had been perennially weak (the Rams from 1990-1998 and the Cardinals from seemingly forever to 2007) and turned them into Cinderella teams who made the Super Bowl.
-He played in three Super Bowls, and the three names at the top of the list of most yards passing in a Super Bowl are Kurt Warner, Kurt Warner, and Kurt Warner.
-He won one of the three Super Bowls, lost the other two in the final minute of the game.
-Four Pro Bowls, two time first team All-Pro.
-9-4 record as a starter in the postseason, with a 31-14 TD-INT ratio.

Warner played 11 years in the NFL, and he had six full-time seasons. In those six seasons (99-01, 07-09), he accomplished the above. I think at his peak (99, 01, 08), he was one of the ten best QB's ever. He is a deserving Hall of Famer.

I just don't think it's that strong of an argument. To me a Hall of Fame QB shouldn't have three great years, followed by five terrible years, and then three great years.

[Ness]

Regarding the TO candidacy, how many current HOFers have had the term "clubhouse cancer" applied to them?

Meanwhile Ray Lewis, who may or may not have murdered someone, could be in the Hall of Fame next year.

[rhickok1109]

I'm not thrilled about this class, outside of LDT.

I disagree with Terrell Davis' election. He had a brilliant stretch, but the brevity of his career, combined with the incredible stretch of production from a stable of Denver runners, convinced me he doesn't belong. Gale Sayers is a frequent comparison, but Sayers did things that no back had ever done. Davis did thingsome that a number of backs could do, and did. Now, Gary, Anderson, Portis, Bell, Droughns... none of them hit 2000 yards, or delivered MVP performances in the post-season, but none of them had Elway either.

Jerry Jones... no.

I'm with you on Davis. As you point out, he was one in a string of Denver runners who put up great numbers for Shanahan. Clinton Portis twice averaged 5.5 yards a carry running in the Shanahan-Gibbs system. Davis was a good runner, but his big numbers were primarily a product of the system, not his ability.

With the system Shanahan had in Denver in the late 90's early 00's, they seemingly had a perpetual 1,000 yard rusher every year after Davis was injured in 1999, but Davis put up numbers in 1996-98 like none of his predecessors did, and that could have been do to standing next to Number 7 in the backfield. Normally, when I apply the "short but brilliant career" argument for the Hall of Fame, it is for guys like Sayers, Butkus, Earl Campbell, Namath who were unique players who watching them, you got the sense you knew you would never see another player quite like them again. (And I would also add John Madden to this list too, as a coach.)

I don't think Davis was that unique, but what he did from 1995-98, and coming back from a serious knee injury to have another 1,000 yard season before blowing out the other knee to end his career, was very impressive. He was clearly the guy who put the Broncos over the top; without him they would not have won two Super Bowls. He dealt with the most famous migraine in sports history to score three short TD's and in the worst part of the migraine where he could hardly see, he went out there and served as a decoy on a short TD run by Elway. (On a side note, I suffer from migraines pretty bad at times and have no idea how he coped with it in the middle of that environment. It makes me respect his performance all the more.)

All in all, I think his monster seasons in 1997 and 1998, plus the "short but brilliant" argument, plus the Super Bowl MVP, plus being the guy who put two rings on John Elways hand, was enough to put him into the Hall of Fame. I would have voted for Davis; I am happy to see him there.

Well, if you look at YPC instead of just total yardage, Clinton Portis put up numbers in 2002 and 2003 that Davis didn't match. If Portis had had as many carries in those two seasons as Davis had in 1998, he would have rushed for 2156 yards.

[Hail Casares]

I'm with you on Davis. As you point out, he was one in a string of Denver runners who put up great numbers for Shanahan. Clinton Portis twice averaged 5.5 yards a carry running in the Shanahan-Gibbs system. Davis was a good runner, but his big numbers were primarily a product of the system, not his ability

With the system Shanahan had in Denver in the late 90's early 00's, they seemingly had a perpetual 1,000 yard rusher every year after Davis was injured in 1999, but Davis put up numbers in 1996-98 like none of his predecessors did, and that could have been do to standing next to Number 7 in the backfield. Normally, when I apply the "short but brilliant career" argument for the Hall of Fame, it is for guys like Sayers, Butkus, Earl Campbell, Namath who were unique players who watching them, you got the sense you knew you would never see another player quite like them again. (And I would also add John Madden to this list too, as a coach.)

I don't think Davis was that unique, but what he did from 1995-98, and coming back from a serious knee injury to have another 1,000 yard season before blowing out the other knee to end his career, was very impressive. He was clearly the guy who put the Broncos over the top; without him they would not have won two Super Bowls. He dealt with the most famous migraine in sports history to score three short TD's and in the worst part of the migraine where he could hardly see, he went out there and served as a decoy on a short TD run by Elway. (On a side note, I suffer from migraines pretty bad at times and have no idea how he coped with it in the middle of that environment. It makes me respect his performance all the more.)

All in all, I think his monster seasons in 1997 and 1998, plus the "short but brilliant" argument, plus the Super Bowl MVP, plus being the guy who put two rings on John Elways hand, was enough to put him into the Hall of Fame. I would have voted for Davis; I am happy to see him there.

Rupert mentione Davis coming back from a knee injury to rush for 1,000 yards...did I miss something somewhere? When did that happen?

[Hail Casares]

The 2018 class could be really stacked.

Ray Lewis
Randy Moss
Brian Urlacher
TO

All are no brainer HOF'ers just interesting to see if TO is finally allowed in or if they make Moss wait as well.

Lewis and Urlacher all but assure that Zach Thomas will have to wait another year.

[Hail Casares]

Overall thoughts:
One of the more odd HOF classes I can think of. You had three guys get in who made their careers in short order(Warner, Easley, and Davis), an eccentric owner(Jones) a ST'er(Andersen) and a guy in Taylor who reminds me a lot of Curtis Martin in terms of I'm not sure he was ever truly great...he was just productive for a long time. Easley is a nice nod to an under appreciated/represented position in Canton but I still liked Lynch or Dawkins better. Tomlinson was obviously a no brainer but the rest of the class was really...weird. I can't really take issue with any of the guys getting in but it feels like after Tomlinson the class was full of "throw in" type guys that would normally be the exception to the class, not the rule.

[L.C. Greenwood]

I disagree Warner got in because he was a nice guy. I made his HOF resume argument earlier in the thread, but I think Hines Ward will eventually get in because:

-He was a key player and a team leader on a number of successful teams in Pittsburgh.
-While he wasn't the deep threat receiver type like Moss/TO/Chad 85, he was a dependable clutch receiver more of a Marvin Harrison.
-Six seasons over 80 receptions, four seasons over 90 catches, and caught 112 receptions in 2002.
-Six seasons over 1,000 yards receiving, twice finished with 975 yards receiving.
-14th in career receptions (1000), 23rd career receiving yards (12,083), 15th career receiving TD's (86)
-Four All-Pro's

He'll get in eventually, probably in the later years of his candidacy.[/quote]
Ward was never the best wide receiver in the NFL at any point in his career though. I don't think he belongs in Canton. With the way things seem to go with the politics of it all he'll probably get in. Before Owens I wouldn't be shocked.[/quote]

When was Bob Griese ever the best QB in his career? Like Hines Ward, he was among the elite, and that's what the HOF is about. Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence, and was a stellar postseason player. On top of everything else, and the receiving leader for a storied franchise, that will eventually be sufficient.

[Hail Casares]

When was Bob Griese ever the best QB in his career? Like Hines Ward, he was among the elite, and that's what the HOF is about. Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence, and was a stellar postseason player. On top of everything else, and the receiving leader for a storied franchise, that will eventually be sufficient.

I wouldn't say Ward was among the elite. 4 PB's in his career. No All Pro berths.

Good to very good player. I think he gets in because he was on the Steelers, nice guy. Etc but he's someone I would put in the Hall of Good to Very good. Not the Hall of Fame. If he hadn't played for the Steelers, he's not a HOF'er.

[Rupert Patrick]

I'm with you on Davis. As you point out, he was one in a string of Denver runners who put up great numbers for Shanahan. Clinton Portis twice averaged 5.5 yards a carry running in the Shanahan-Gibbs system. Davis was a good runner, but his big numbers were primarily a product of the system, not his ability

With the system Shanahan had in Denver in the late 90's early 00's, they seemingly had a perpetual 1,000 yard rusher every year after Davis was injured in 1999, but Davis put up numbers in 1996-98 like none of his predecessors did, and that could have been do to standing next to Number 7 in the backfield. Normally, when I apply the "short but brilliant career" argument for the Hall of Fame, it is for guys like Sayers, Butkus, Earl Campbell, Namath who were unique players who watching them, you got the sense you knew you would never see another player quite like them again. (And I would also add John Madden to this list too, as a coach.)

I don't think Davis was that unique, but what he did from 1995-98, and coming back from a serious knee injury to have another 1,000 yard season before blowing out the other knee to end his career, was very impressive. He was clearly the guy who put the Broncos over the top; without him they would not have won two Super Bowls. He dealt with the most famous migraine in sports history to score three short TD's and in the worst part of the migraine where he could hardly see, he went out there and served as a decoy on a short TD run by Elway. (On a side note, I suffer from migraines pretty bad at times and have no idea how he coped with it in the middle of that environment. It makes me respect his performance all the more.)

All in all, I think his monster seasons in 1997 and 1998, plus the "short but brilliant" argument, plus the Super Bowl MVP, plus being the guy who put two rings on John Elways hand, was enough to put him into the Hall of Fame. I would have voted for Davis; I am happy to see him there.

Rupert mentione Davis coming back from a knee injury to rush for 1,000 yards...did I miss something somewhere? When did that happen?

I was misinformed. He did not come back and rush for 1,000 yards.

[Bryan]

Overall thoughts:
One of the more odd HOF classes I can think of. You had three guys get in who made their careers in short order(Warner, Easley, and Davis), an eccentric owner(Jones) a ST'er(Andersen) and a guy in Taylor who reminds me a lot of Curtis Martin in terms of I'm not sure he was ever truly great...he was just productive for a long time. Easley is a nice nod to an under appreciated/represented position in Canton but I still liked Lynch or Dawkins better. Tomlinson was obviously a no brainer but the rest of the class was really...weird. I can't really take issue with any of the guys getting in but it feels like after Tomlinson the class was full of "throw in" type guys that would normally be the exception to the class, not the rule.

I agree that its a weird class. I didn't expect Owens to get in on 1st ballot...regardless of media bias, he wore out his welcome in several places and ended up being detrimental to his team's success despite his statistics. Billy Howton retired as the NFL all-time leading WR, and he never sniffed the HOF because he was somewhat of a prima donna as well.

I like Dawkins better than Easley as a HOFer, but Easley didn't really 'cancel out' Dawkins as he went in via the Seniors route. I've always been in the corner of short-career guys like Warner, Easley and Davis...and I'm happy they got in...I just didn't think they'd all get in during the same year. I think Taylor deserved to be a HOFer.

I think the Jerry Jones selection is an atrocity, on par with the worst selections ever. I didn't like the recent DeBartolo selection, but I could live with it because of DeBartolo's sustained success. Not really sure what Jones has accomplished. I'd rather put Mickey McBride in than Jerry Jones.