Why Not Backdate the Net Punting Statistic?

[JohnTurney]

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... istic.html

I am trying to get Bobby Joe Green's touchbacks for 1961. I put in a request to HOF to get the 6-7 games of gamebooks not in the PFRA archives. Anyway, it's one of those things I wish Elias would do, if they have the game books. At least take it back as far as they have complete data, but none of use know what that is. 1960? 1950? I doubt they have complete date further back than that.

I've looked at Sammy Baugh's numbers and he did have a not of punt return yardage against him in some of those bug punting seasons, but we'll likely never know his net---but it would be good to get the 1950s if possible. I tried to get a lot of the top seasons of the 1960s, but may have missed some. I just looked at the gorss, then checked to see if there were seasons with low punt return yardage, then see if the teams posted touchbacks and if they didn't triedto fill in what I could from the gamebooks we have at the PFRA.

But, if I missed some, let me know. I looked at most of the ones that I though had potential to be above 38 net

[TodMaher]

The NFL (and AAFC) did keep team net punting average from 1942 to 1960. Then Elias took over and it disappeared until Elias rediscovered it in 1976.

[JohnTurney]

The NFL (and AAFC) did keep team net punting average from 1942 to 1960. Then Elias took over and it disappeared until Elias rediscovered it in 1976.

I was not aware of the AAFC, but yes, the old NFL guides and team net punting, which included touchbacks and return yards, but it is not individual, so if a team had more than one guy punt, you kind of had to guestimate the net average...

another thing those old guides had was the total yardage of made field goals---kind of an interesting stat, IMO

[Steviek]

There was also that weird one year in 1975 where Elias kept track of "coffin corner" punts which I believe was classified as those which were placed inside of the 10-yard line.

[JohnTurney]

There was also that weird one year in 1975 where Elias kept track of "coffin corner" punts which I believe was classified as those which were placed inside of the 10-yard line.

I'd forgotten about that, but now that you mention, I remember seeing it. Good call

[Ronfitch]

There was also that weird one year in 1975 where Elias kept track of "coffin corner" punts which I believe was classified as those which were placed inside of the 10-yard line.

CC is such a great concept to track as a stat and as part of measuring an effect punting game.

[JohnTurney]

There was also that weird one year in 1975 where Elias kept track of "coffin corner" punts which I believe was classified as those which were placed inside of the 10-yard line.

CC is such a great concept to track as a stat and as part of measuring an effect punting game.

I would have to go back and count, but Eischeid seemed like he had quite a few insie the 10 in one of the years, 1967-69, cannot remember which, but in counting up touchbacks I noticed a lot that were excellent punts, was in hurry when looking so I didn't track them


Ray Guy had quite a few inside the 10 as well, from 1973-75. He had a lot of touchbacks, but my memory is he missed going for the CC, was going to pin them in at the 5, missed and it was a TB. High rish, high reward thing by him

[Rupert Patrick]

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... istic.html

I am trying to get Bobby Joe Green's touchbacks for 1961. I put in a request to HOF to get the 6-7 games of gamebooks not in the PFRA archives.

If these gamebooks can be found and added to the PFRA archives it can solve a mystery surrounding Bobby Joe Green's 1961 season that I have been trying to figure out for some time. In 1961, Green is credited with a missed field goal, which I think may be an error. All the gamebooks I have found and newspaper sources for Steelers missed FG's in 1961 mention Lou Michaels as the kicker who missed it, so having the complete gamebooks for the 1961 Steelers would answer this question.

If I may ask, what is the process for requesting gamebooks from the HOF and what are the costs involved?

By the way, the site for downloading the gamebooks seems to be down. I just tried to download the 1961 NFL/AFL gamebooks and it said the footballproject site could not be found.

[JohnTurney]

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... istic.html

I am trying to get Bobby Joe Green's touchbacks for 1961. I put in a request to HOF to get the 6-7 games of gamebooks not in the PFRA archives.

If these gamebooks can be found and added to the PFRA archives it can solve a mystery surrounding Bobby Joe Green's 1961 season that I have been trying to figure out for some time. In 1961, Green is credited with a missed field goal, which I think may be an error. All the gamebooks I have found and newspaper sources for Steelers missed FG's in 1961 mention Lou Michaels as the kicker who missed it, so having the complete gamebooks for the 1961 Steelers would answer this question.

If I may ask, what is the process for requesting gamebooks from the HOF and what are the costs involved?

By the way, the site for downloading the gamebooks seems to be down. I just tried to download the 1961 NFL/AFL gamebooks and it said the footballproject site could not be found.

Well, essentially, the HOF will help out by doing research, the cost is dependent on the time. But also, they really only have one researcher, and he's a great guy, very helpful, so things take time. He puts a request on his list and he gets to it when he can, I suppose in the order they come in. So, you would email Jon Kendle at the HOF and ask for what you want. As far as gamebook requests, my opinion would be that folks coordinate what they get with the forum here so we don't have 2 or 3 people asking for the same gamebooks... as far as the site, it is down for a while until the PFRA can get the documents transferred to a new host,

I have the ones the PFRA site has, in the 1961 season in the 8 games I've researched Green has 3 touchabcks. What game was the supposed missed FG? If it is one I have I can check for you

[Rupert Patrick]

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... istic.html

I am trying to get Bobby Joe Green's touchbacks for 1961. I put in a request to HOF to get the 6-7 games of gamebooks not in the PFRA archives.

If these gamebooks can be found and added to the PFRA archives it can solve a mystery surrounding Bobby Joe Green's 1961 season that I have been trying to figure out for some time. In 1961, Green is credited with a missed field goal, which I think may be an error. All the gamebooks I have found and newspaper sources for Steelers missed FG's in 1961 mention Lou Michaels as the kicker who missed it, so having the complete gamebooks for the 1961 Steelers would answer this question.

If I may ask, what is the process for requesting gamebooks from the HOF and what are the costs involved?

By the way, the site for downloading the gamebooks seems to be down. I just tried to download the 1961 NFL/AFL gamebooks and it said the footballproject site could not be found.

Well, essentially, the HOF will help out by doing research, the cost is dependent on the time. But also, they really only have one researcher, and he's a great guy, very helpful, so things take time. He puts a request on his list and he gets to it when he can, I suppose in the order they come in. So, you would email Jon Kendle at the HOF and ask for what you want. As far as gamebook requests, my opinion would be that folks coordinate what they get with the forum here so we don't have 2 or 3 people asking for the same gamebooks... as far as the site, it is down for a while until the PFRA can get the documents transferred to a new host,

I have the ones the PFRA site has, in the 1961 season in the 8 games I've researched Green has 3 touchabcks. What game was the supposed missed FG? If it is one I have I can check for you

I met Jon Kendle when I visited the HOF in 2010 and spent two days in the library. He was indeed helpful.

Here are the missed field goals I have for Lou Michaels in 1961:

9/17 vs. Dallas - 39 and 45 yards
10/8 vs. Philadelphia - 49 yards
10/15 vs. Washington - 47 yards
10/22 vs. Cleveland - 44 yards
11/5 vs. Cleveland - 43, 45 and 14 yards
11/19 vs. NY Giants - 43 yards blocked
11/26 vs. St. Louis - 41 and 28 yards
12/17 vs. St. Louis - 49 yards

If the 1961 NFL field goal statistics are correct, one of these misses actually belongs to Green as Michaels is credited with 11 misses and Green with one, but the Pittsburgh papers mention that Michaels missed all these field goals. For the boldfaced games, the Philadelphia game and the two Cleveland games, I have the gamebooks that I got from the PFRA site and they mention that Michaels missed the field goals in those games. It is the five other games, the Dallas game and the games against Washington and New York and the two St. Louis games, that I would beinterested in getting the gamebooks for.