Giants vs Vikes, '67-'71

[74_75_78_79_]

During Tarkenton's time with the G-men, he played against his former/future-team three times with each game being competitive. The first came in '67, his return to the Met, and final two ('69 & '71) were played in the Bronx. The '69 matchup is perhaps the most noteworthy in that it was the opener with the Giants actually prevailing against the juggernaut, Tark throwing 2 TDs in the 4th Q in a comeback victory; Vikes would go on a 12-game win-streak not losing again until the finale. Vikes prevailed over NYG in both '67 & '71. A shame they didn't play each other in '70 while both were good.

[BD Sullivan]

During Tarkenton's time with the G-men, he played against his former/future-team three times with each game being competitive. The first came in '67, his return to the Met, and final two ('69 & '71) were played in the Bronx. The '69 matchup is perhaps the most noteworthy in that it was the opener with the Giants actually prevailing against the juggernaut, Tark throwing 2 TDs in the 4th Q in a comeback victory; Vikes would go on a 12-game win-streak not losing again until the finale. Vikes prevailed over NYG in both '67 & '71. A shame they didn't play each other in '70 while both were good.

While Gary Cuozzo threw for 255 yards in that 1969 game, Bud Grant yanked him the following week, Kapp threw seven TD's against the Colts and Grant never looked back. In that Giants' loss, the Vikes had a 17-3 halftime lead, but Tarkenton's constant scrambling on a warm day took a toll. Minnesota still had a 23-10 lead with five minutes left. Then, with just over a minute to play, the Giants had 3rd-and-17 at the Viking 38 and after Tarkenton scrambled around, he flung the ball to about the 10, where Bobby Bryant tipped it and Butch Wilson lunged to grab it. Don Herrmann then caught the game-winner. Bryant had also made a pretty weak tackle attempt at about the Giant 20 on one of Tarkenton's TD passes.

[ChrisBabcock]

Something interesting to discuss... The amount of time elapsed between the two trades might be too great to make a good comparison, but what was the net value of each Tarkenton trade (combined) and did it improve each team in the long run? Tarkenton went to the Giants for four draft picks (two first- and two second-round choices spread across three seasons - don't know what players those turned out to be.) Then he was sent back 4 years later for Norm Snead, Bob Grim, Vince Clements and a 1st-round choice in 1972 and 1973... Again, I don't know off the top of my head what players those picks turned out to be.

So essentially the Giants swapped those 4 picks in the first trade for those 3 players and 2 picks in the second trade. ...with Tarkenton "on loan" for 5 years.

[JohnTurney]

Something interesting to discuss... The amount of time elapsed between the two trades might be too great to make a good comparison, but what was the net value of each Tarkenton trade (combined) and did it improve each team in the long run? Tarkenton went to the Giants for four draft picks (two first- and two second-round choices spread across three seasons - don't know what players those turned out to be.) Then he was sent back 4 years later for Norm Snead, Bob Grim, Vince Clements and a 1st-round choice in 1972 and 1973... Again, I don't know off the top of my head what players those picks turned out to be.

So essentially the Giants swapped those 4 picks in the first trade for those 3 players and 2 picks in the second trade. ...with Tarkenton "on loan" for 5 years.

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/fo ... mit=Search

Vikings got:
• 1967 first round pick (#2-Clint Jones)
• 1967 second round pick (#28-Bob Grim)
• 1968 first round pick (#1-Ron Yary)
• 1969 second round pick (#39-Ed White (b))

Then, when he returned
Giants got:
• Norm Snead
• Bob Grim
• Vince Clements
• 1972 first round pick (#24-Larry Jacobson)
• 1973 second round pick (#40-Brad Van Pelt)

[Evan]

The 1967 Tarkenton trade from Minnesota to New York was one of the more complicated I've ever come across, and if anyone here can explain it all clearly and concisely, you'd be the first. Among the tidbits I've found in my research are:

1. After initially opposing the AFL-NFL merger. Wellington Mara approved the merger provided the Giants received a financial indemnity for giving up exclusive territorial rights, and the No. 1 overall pick in an upcoming draft (either 1967 or 1968).

2. The NFL agreed to the draft pick, but only if the Giants used that pick to select a QB, or traded the pick for a QB. (So essentially because Joe Namath and the Jets were coming to town, the Giants could leapfrog other teams to get the top pick in a future draft, and were told you better get a new QB, one way or another. Any other instance in NFL history that such bizarre circumstances occurred?)

3. This top pick was not an additional pick, but a re-shifting of the Giants' first pick in either 1967 or 1968.

4. The Giants already knew that in 1967 their first pick was going to be the No. 2 overall pick by virtue of their 1-12-1 1966 season, so it kind of made sense to hold the "bonus No. 1 overall pick" for 1968 -- if they chose to keep the pick, which they didn't.

5. The Giants basically considered three options with that No. 1 overall pick (I've also read that the 1967 draft was delayed for some reason, giving the Giants more time to stew on the options):
a. Use the No. 1 overall pick in 1967 for one of the three top college QBs: Steve Spurrier, Bob Griese or Don Horn
b. Hold the No. 1 overall pick for 1968 where they could assumedly pick Greg Landry or Ken Stabler
c. Trade the pick for a veteran QB. The Tarkenton rumors started in Jan. 1967, with one of the first rumors having the Giants picking Spurrier with the No. 1 overall pick, then trading Spurrier, Ernie Koy and Jerry Hillebrand to the Vikings for Tarkenton. Other available veteran QBs included Gary Cuozzo of Baltimore, George Mira of SF, Ron Vanderkelen of Minnesota. The Giants also weren't sure yet about giving up on Earl Morrall, who was recovering from a wrist injury on his passing hand.

6. When the Vikings received that "guaranteed No. 1 overall" pick as part of the Tarkenton deal, they had the choice of using the pick in 1967 or 1968, and of course could choose any player, not necessarily a QB.

7. The Vikings felt good about the 1967 first-round pick they got from the Giants which was no. 2 overall (taking RB Clint Jones). So the Vikings chose to use the No. 1 overall pick in 1968, which up until draft day they were expected to use for a quarterback. A UPI story mentioned that the Vikings were expected to draft Gary Beban and trade him for Bill Munson of the Rams.

8. But instead of trying to work the Beban-Munson angle, the Vikings filled their QB needs by giving up two first-round picks (their regular picks in 1968 and 1969) for QB Gary Cuozzo. Then the Vikings used the Giants "No. 1 overall pick" they got from the Tarkenton trade to draft Ron Yary. The Saints had acquired Cuozzo the year before by trading their No. 1 overall 1967 pick to the Colts to get him (the Colts used the No. 1 overall pick on Bubba Smith).

So, I'm not really sure where you would consider the ripples from the Tarkenton trade stopping, but it certainly had a lot of rare, possibly unique, aspects involved in it.

Sources: "Football's New York Giants: A History" By Lawrence A. Pervin, and archives of Newsday newspaper

[JohnTurney]

Fine work, Evan. That is very interesting . . . never in a million years knew it was that complex.

[Evan]

Thanks John, I appreciate it! After going back through some of my Tarkenton books and Vikings history books, I found these additional anecdotes:

1. Jim Finks conducted one draft from a hospital bed after gallbladder surgery.

2. In December of 1966, Jim Finks began letting teams know that Tarkenton was available for trade. The Giants had the best offer, although Pittsburgh and Detroit were also interested.

3. There’s a photo of Finks and Bud Grant looking up at a chalkboard during a draft, with papers all over a table – and a few candles lit. Those candles weren’t for a divine prayer of draft wisdom. Apparently Finks was a chain smoker, and Grant detested smoking, so he lit some candles to defuse the smoke while they were stuck in their draft room together all day.

4. The Vikings apparently sold the Rams a bill of goods by sending two players with bad knees – Tommy Mason and Hal Bedsole, with their 1967 2nd round pick – to L.A. in exchange for Marlin McKeever and their 1967 first-round pick, who became Alan Page when the Vikings picked him.

5. I also read that John Brodie was available for trade before the 1967 draft too, which doesn’t make sense to me as I think all of his Oilers stuff was settled by then. I also don’t quite get why SF traded up with Atlanta to draft Spurrier, and why Atlanta, in need of a good QB, traded with them. Seems like Spurrier’s stock dropped at some point after he was assumed to be going to the Giants with the top pick.

6. Incredibly enough, the histrionics between several CFL teams, the Vikings and N.O. Saints that brought Joe Kapp to Minnesota in 1967 might have even topped the complexity of all the Tarkenton-related wheelings and dealings. There’s a summary of the Kapp story on his Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Kapp), and I bet there’s more behind-the-scenes anecdotes for those who dig deeper.

[Bryan]

5. The Giants basically considered three options with that No. 1 overall pick (I've also read that the 1967 draft was delayed for some reason, giving the Giants more time to stew on the options):
a. Use the No. 1 overall pick in 1967 for one of the three top college QBs: Steve Spurrier, Bob Griese or Don Horn
b. Hold the No. 1 overall pick for 1968 where they could assumedly pick Greg Landry or Ken Stabler
c. Trade the pick for a veteran QB. The Tarkenton rumors started in Jan. 1967, with one of the first rumors having the Giants picking Spurrier with the No. 1 overall pick, then trading Spurrier, Ernie Koy and Jerry Hillebrand to the Vikings for Tarkenton. Other available veteran QBs included Gary Cuozzo of Baltimore, George Mira of SF, Ron Vanderkelen of Minnesota. The Giants also weren't sure yet about giving up on Earl Morrall, who was recovering from a wrist injury on his passing hand.

7. The Vikings felt good about the 1967 first-round pick they got from the Giants which was no. 2 overall (taking RB Clint Jones). So the Vikings chose to use the No. 1 overall pick in 1968, which up until draft day they were expected to use for a quarterback. A UPI story mentioned that the Vikings were expected to draft Gary Beban and trade him for Bill Munson of the Rams.

8. But instead of trying to work the Beban-Munson angle, the Vikings filled their QB needs by giving up two first-round picks (their regular picks in 1968 and 1969) for QB Gary Cuozzo. Then the Vikings used the Giants "No. 1 overall pick" they got from the Tarkenton trade to draft Ron Yary. The Saints had acquired Cuozzo the year before by trading their No. 1 overall 1967 pick to the Colts to get him (the Colts used the No. 1 overall pick on Bubba Smith).

Its funny to see the names of some of the QBs potentially involved in this trade, most of whom weren't any good. Maybe in retrospect it would have been best for the Giants just to hold on to their 'gift' draft pick and select Bob Griese. The other big name college QBs of Spurrier, Horn & Beban never did much in the NFL.

Cuozzo and even Munson always seemed to have 'market value', but perhaps the most interesting turn of events would have been if the Vikings had gotten Earl Morrall from the Giants in the exchange.

[Evan]

I agree Bryan, I'm always intrigued by the evaluations, options, and eventual rationales for decisions on draft day. So many great stories and anecdotes are out there.

Interesting that Cuozzo, an undrafted player, was evetually traded for a total of three No. 1 picks over the course of two trades -- all off his potential from some spot play and a general sense that he could do more than he had shown. Nice job by PFR on its draft stories series -- http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8352

[BD Sullivan]

6. Incredibly enough, the histrionics between several CFL teams, the Vikings and N.O. Saints that brought Joe Kapp to Minnesota in 1967 might have even topped the complexity of all the Tarkenton-related wheelings and dealings. There’s a summary of the Kapp story on his Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Kapp), and I bet there’s more behind-the-scenes anecdotes for those who dig deeper.

Kapp had actually signed a contract with the Oilers in 1967 under the assumption that his contract was up on May 31 of that year. However, the BC Lions (his CFL team) had an option year attached, so the AFL voided the contract. He ended up suing BC, which ended up in his eventually being released from his deal and he signed with the Vikes on September 3--two weeks before the start of the regular season.