1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

John Grasso
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by John Grasso »

Saban wrote: Also, there was itching powder put in the soap of the visitor's showers and other things like that.
Do you realize the major calamity that would be if it happened in this generation. It would be
front-page news for the rest of the year with lawsuits, fines and suspensions.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

John Grasso wrote:
Saban wrote: Also, there was itching powder put in the soap of the visitor's showers and other things like that.
Do you realize the major calamity that would be if it happened in this generation. It would be
front-page news for the rest of the year with lawsuits, fines and suspensions.
True. A person can't get away with anything anymore.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

Saban wrote:Talking about Cleveland's 6 HOF players in 1946, there were also other good players who were either named to 1st or 2nd team all-pro or all-league teams sometime during their careers. Some were: Mac Soeedie, Lou Rymkus (Speedie and Rymkus were named to all-league teams in both the AAFC and NFL), Lin Houston, Ed Ulinski, and Lou Saban (Saban played almost exclusively on defense, but was named all-league and all-pro center as a special consideration in 1948 and 1949 because there was not any all-pros named at defensive positions during the 1940's). Edgar Jone was named all-league in Canada in 1950, so maybe that should count for something. Jones averaged 7 yards per carry in 1946 and 6.4 yards per carry in 1947, but was not named to any all-league teams then probably because so many other Cleveland players filled up so many of the 11 player slots (like Graham, Motley, Lavelli, Speedie, Rymkus, Willis, Ulunski, and Scarry). Rymkus was named 1st team all-pro by the Chicago Herald-American in 1946.

There were no defensive positions on the various all-pro or all-league teams named during the 1940's, but there were players for Cleveland on the defensive side that would have been named to some all-league or all-pro teams during their careers if there were such teams. How about Tom Colella, who led the AAFC in interceptions with 10 in 1946, or Cliff Lewis, who led the AAFC in interceptions over the league's 4 year span with 24. Tackle Chet Adams had been named to some all-pro teams in the NFL, and I am sure that John Yonakor and George Young would have been named to at least a 2nd team all-league team sometime during the AAFC years (1946-49) if there were defensive all-pro teams during that decade.

Bottom line, the Cleveland Browns were really an all-star team in 1946, even though it was their first year as a team.

The Chicago Bears also had their share of good players other than their 4 Hall of fame players in 1946. How about Dante Magnani, Hugh Gallarmeau, Bill Osmanski, Ray McLean, George Wilson, Jim Keane, Ray Bray, Fred Davis, Ed Sprinkle, etc. Maybe not quite as many good and great players as their powerful teams of the early 1940's, but still impressive.

I wish that there was such a game and it was on film. I would have loved to have seen it.

I forgot about Don Greenwood. Don Greenwood was named 2nd team All-Pro in 1945 by the Chicago Herald-American. Greenwood was one of the 5 Rams players who opted to stay in Cleveland and play for the Browns in 1946 rather than move to Los Angeles with the Rams.

Greenwood played fullback for the Rams in 1945 and either linebacker or defensive back for the Rams that year. In 1946, Don Greenwood was the starting right halfback for the Browns and played either defensive back or maybe he was the middle linebacker for Cleveland that year. If Don did play middle linebacker for the Browns in 1946, that would give Cleveland 2 more positions with players that were named All-Pro or All-League during their careers, bringing the total up to about 20 of Cleveland's starting positions on offense and defense in 1946.

A break for the Cleveland Browns getting those 5 Rams players in 1946 due to the Rams move to Los Angeles. I think that Cleveland would have still been a strong team in 1946 without those players, but it didn't hurt to have some veteran players on the team.

Actually, Cleveland had less former NFL players on the Browns in 1946 than any of the AAFC teams other than the Chicago Rockets.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

Saban wrote:Cleveland's two starting defensive tackles in 1946 during the regular season were Chet Adams and Ernie Blandin. A few days before the 1946 AAFC Championship game, Head Coach Paul Brown fired starting offensive left tackle Jim Daniell. Taking his place in the title game was Ernie Blandin. So, if Blandin was playing offensive tackle, then who was the main defensive tackle that day along with Adams? Whoever it was probably would have been one of the main defensive tackles for the Super Bowl against the Bears, if there was such a game. Anyone know?

I surmised that Lou Groza was now one of the main defensive tackles for the Browns against the Yankees, but it turns out that Groza had a sprained ankle and missed 3 field goals in the title game possibly as a result of that (Chet Adams missed a fourth one for Cleveland that day). So, in light of the sprained ankle, Groza may not have been the DT, even though he did play defensive tackle at times before becoming the starting offensive left tackle in 1948.

Another possibility is John Yonakor, who was usually the starting defensive right end, but could and sometimes did play defensive tackle for Cleveland. John Harrington, a reserve end for Cleveland in 1946, did play in the championship game that year, so it is possible that Yonakor was moved to defensive tackle for that game and Harrington played defensive end in Yonakor's place.

Maybe Blandin or OT Lou Rymkus did double duty on offense and defense that day, but I doubt that Paul Brown would have had Blandin doing double duty in his first game as starting offensive left tackle. Of course, without free substitution in 1946, Blandin and Rymkus had to play defense on a change of possession until a substitution could be made, but both could play defense, especially for a few plays when they had to.

A tackle named Len Simonetti was activated from the taxi squad just a few days before the championship game, so there is a remote possibility that he was used to replace Blandin on defense, but it doesn't seem like the Browns would chance using someone just off the taxi squad to play most of the game on the defensive line. Simonetti did play in the game though.

I suppose that there are other possibilities, like a reserve guard being used at the DT position, or Frank Gatski, who was a backup center and linebacker, but was as big as a lot of tackles in those days, and did play in the title game.

I think that Lou Rymkus was one of the main defensive tackles for Cleveland during the 1946 AAFC championship game along with Chet Adams. The reason I think this is because I recently was reading Paul Brown's book and he mentioned that Rymkus did double duty at the offensive and defensive tackle positions for the first couple of years of the Browns existence (1946 and 1947). In 1948, Cleveland traded for Forrest "Chubby" Grigg (not to be confused with Green Bay's Forrest Gregg), who became the Browns starting defensive tackle for a couple of years or so.

Evidently, Ernie Blandin, who took over at left offensive tackle for Cleveland in the AAFC title game, would be replaced at defensive tackle by Chet Adams sometime after the Browns would go on defense. Blandin had been a starter at defensive tackle right up to the championship game.

So, Cleveland's defensive line for the hypothetical 1946 Super Bowl for the most part would be: John Yonakor and George Young at the ends, Lou Rymkus and Chet Adams at tackles, and Bill Will Willis at middle guard. Could they handle Chicago's very good offensive line? Well, Rymkus and Adams were experienced defensive tackles, and Willis was Willis (as said before, Bulldog Turner questioned whether he could handle Willis), and by the end of the season, ends Yonakor and Young probably had enough experience to hold their own at their end positions, as Bryan said. Also, Paul Brown said that he considered Yonakor to be his best ever defensive end outside of Len Ford and Paul Wiggin, and George Young started at left defensive end for Cleveland for 7 or 8 years, so he must have been more than adequate. The Browns also had great outside linebackers in Lou Saban and Marion Motley in 1946.

BTW, I mentioned in another post that Yonakor, Young, Colella, and Lewis as defensive players that were All-Pro types. Those 4 players were never named to any All-Pro or All-League teams. That is my opinion that they would have been named to All-League teams in their AAFC years if there were AAFC All-League teams for defensive positions in those years. I feel certain that they would have been though.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

I think that I mentioned before someplace that I didn't know who played the middle linebacker position for Cleveland in 1946 (I am pretty sure that the Browns played a 5-3-3 defense at that time). Well, I think that I know now. In 1946, I believe that the main person playing middle linebacker for Cleveland was Mike Scarry, who was also Cleveland's starting center that year.

I know that Mo Scarry did play linebacker as well as being the starting center for Cleveland then, and Lou Saban and Marion Motley were the main outside linebackers in 1946, so I believe that Scarry was the main middle backer that year.

So, here is what I believe were the main players at their respective positions for the Cleveland Browns in the championship game in 1946.

Offense:

QB-Otto Graham
FB-Marion Motley
HB-Edgar Jones
HB-Don Greenwood
LE-Mac Speedie
LT-Ernie Blandin
LG-Ed Ulinski
C-Mo Scarry
RG-Lin Houston
RT-Lou Rymkus
RE-Dante Lavelli

Defense:

LE-George Young
LT-Chet Adams
MG-Bill Willis
RT-Lou Rymkus
RE-John Yonakor
LLB-Marion Motley
MLB-Mo Scarry
RLB-Lou Saban
LHB-Tom Colella
S-Cliff Lewis
RHB-Otto Graham or Don Greenwood

I mentioned before that I think that the 1946 Browns were an all-star team. Well. as I said before, there were no defensive positions on the All-Pro or All-League teams during the 1940's, but I believe that George Young, John Yonakor, Tom Colella, and Cliff Lewis would have been certain to be at least 2nd team all-league sometime during the AAFC years (1946-49). I also wrote that Edgar "Special Delivery" Jones was named to an all-pro or all-league team in Canada, and should have been named All-League in 1946 and or 1947 when he averaged 7 yards per rush in 1946 and 6.4 yards per carry in 1947. I believe that he was kept off in those years because so many other Cleveland players were named including Graham and Motley from the Browns backfield.

So, If Edgar Jones and the 4 defensive players are included as all-pro types, then 21 of 22 of Cleveland's positions were manned by players who were or should have been named to 1st or 2nd All-Pro or All-League teams sometime during their careers. The only player that wasn't was Ernie Blandin, and Blandin was not a bad player as evidenced by Paul Brown, who did not like it at all when the Browns were forced to give Blandin (as well as Y.A. Tittle and others) to Baltimore in the Commissioner's idea to share the wealth (or the haves help out the have-nots). Anyway, 21 out of 22 players is pretty good I would say. I don't think that you could say that for many other teams.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

Team A usually beats team B, and team B usually beats team C. Therefore, Team A should usually beat team C. Right? Not really. Some teams just seem to match up with other teams better than other teams match up to the same teams. For instance, Cleveland beat the Chicago Bears in 1951, 42 to 21 at Chicago's Wrigley Field, despite Marion Motley not being the force that he was just a year earlier due to knee injuries. Motley had his first really off year in 1951, only gaining 273 yards on 61 carries and wasn't even Cleveland's leading rusher that year (Dub Jones was and Ken Carpenter was Cleveland's 2nd leading rusher in 1951). Motley led the NFL in rushing in 1950 with over 800 yards and a 5.8 average yards per rush.

In 1954, Cleveland again beat the Bears 39 to 0, and even in 1960, 5 years after Otto Graham's retirement, the Browns again beat the Chicago Bears 42 to 0. So, that is 3 times in all 3 games that Cleveland played the Chicago Bears that the Browns won easily.

A different story was the Detroit Lions, that had great success against the Browns in both the 1950's and 1960's except for the 1954 championship game, which Cleveland won 56 to 10. Altogether, from 1952 through 1970, Detroit beat Cleveland eleven times including 3 championship games (1952, 1953, and 1957). Those Detroit wins do not include a win in the so-called runner up bowl in 1960. Detroit even beat Cleveland at times when they had losing seasons and the Browns were contenders.

My point is, some teams just match up better with some teams than other teams. Detroit certainly matched up with the Browns well during the 1950's and 1960's, although the Graham era Browns always played Detroit tough. After 1955, their games often were not even close.

So, I believe that it was that way with Cleveland and the Chicago Bears. I believe that Cleveland beats Chicago even at Wrigley in 1946, not just for that reason, but also for others like Cleveland having just too much talent, Paul Brown ( I haven't posted on this thread about coach Brown yet), the Browns defense, Cleveland's passing game, and other things.

Not meaning to knock the Bears, but in 1946, they just were not the same as they were during the early 1940's. Many of their greatest players had retired or were past their primes, and some were coming back after years in the war. It was a very good job by Halas and his staff to get Chicago into the NFL Championship game and winning it, but I have to go with Cleveland in a Super Bowl anywhere in 1946, assuming the officiating is fair and square.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

Yes, I know. I said at the beginning of this thread that I would give the edge to Chicago in 1946 if the game was at Wrigley Field in Chicago. I changed my mind. As they say in a court of law, by the preponderance of the evidence, I have to go with the Cleveland Browns no matter where the game was played. Of course, the Bears chances of winning would be better in Chicago, but I believe that the Browns should win even at Wrigley. JMO.

I mentioned who the starters would be for Cleveland on offense and defense that year, but I think that even in Cleveland's first season that they had depth in case of injuries or whatever. An example of this is that in Cleveland's 2nd game with Miami that season, Marion Motley and Bill Willis could not play due to an old segregation law in Florida. So Cleveland played without two of their greatest ever players and still managed to squeak by, 34 to 0.

The Browns reserves in 1946 did manage to get a good amount of playing time early in the season when Cleveland was still experimenting with players to see where everyone fit best in the lineup, and later in the season when the Browns had some games where they got way ahead and had the luxury of playing their reserves.

The Cleveland Browns seemed to play about the same when their reserves were in the game than when the starters were in. The only thing that seemed to change were the numbers. Some of their good reserves were C/LB Frank Gatski, FB/DB Gaylon Smith, who also could play linebacker and maybe did at times, HB/DB Ray Terrell, who made 3 interceptions on defense that year and I believe replaced safety Cliff Lewis for about 4 games when Lewis was injured, HB/DB Bill Lund, who filled in well at times and was kept on by Cleveland for the 1947 season, OE/DE John Harrington, who did get some good playing time on offense and defense, and of course, Lou Groza, who played some at the tackle positions as well as kicking.

BTW, I am sure that Frank Gatski would have been the starting center in 1946, except that veteran center Mo Scarry, who was named 2nd team all-pro in the NFL in 1945 for the Rams was available to play center and linebacker for Cleveland in 1946. Evidently, Coach Brown decided to go with the more experienced Scarry, who was the starter at center in 1946 and 1947 before retiring. Gatski took over as the starter at center in 1948 and was good enough to end up in the HOF.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

Saban wrote:Yes, I know. I said at the beginning of this thread that I would give the edge to Chicago in 1946 if the game was at Wrigley Field in Chicago. I changed my mind. As they say in a court of law, by the preponderance of the evidence, I have to go with the Cleveland Browns no matter where the game was played. Of course, the Bears chances of winning would be better in Chicago, but I believe that the Browns should win even at Wrigley. JMO.

I mentioned who the starters would be for Cleveland on offense and defense that year, but I think that even in Cleveland's first season that they had depth in case of injuries or whatever. An example of this is that in Cleveland's 2nd game with Miami that season, Marion Motley and Bill Willis could not play due to an old segregation law in Florida. So Cleveland played without two of their greatest ever players and still managed to squeak by, 34 to 0.

The Browns reserves in 1946 did manage to get a good amount of playing time early in the season when Cleveland was still experimenting with players to see where everyone fit best in the lineup, and later in the season when the Browns had some games where they got way ahead and had the luxury of playing their reserves.

The Cleveland Browns seemed to play about the same when their reserves were in the game than when the starters were in. The only thing that seemed to change were the numbers. Some of their good reserves were C/LB Frank Gatski, FB/DB Gaylon Smith, who also could play linebacker and maybe did at times, HB/DB Ray Terrell, who made 3 interceptions on defense that year and I believe replaced safety Cliff Lewis for about 4 games when Lewis was injured, HB/DB Bill Lund, who filled in well at times and was kept on by Cleveland for the 1947 season, OE/DE John Harrington, who did get some good playing time on offense and defense, and of course, Lou Groza, who played some at the tackle positions as well as kicking.

BTW, I am sure that Frank Gatski would have been the starting center in 1946, except that veteran center Mo Scarry, who was named 2nd team all-pro in the NFL in 1945 for the Rams was available to play center and linebacker for Cleveland in 1946. Evidently, Coach Brown decided to go with the more experienced Scarry, who was the starter at center in 1946 and 1947 before retiring. Gatski took over as the starter at center in 1948 and was good enough to end up in the HOF.

A mistake that I made in the previous post is when I wrote that Gaylon Smith played fullback and defensive back in 1946 and could also play linebacker. I had it mixed up. Gaylon played fullback and linebacker that year and could have played defensive back if needed there (He had played defensive back sometimes for the Rams).

Gaylon Smith probably would have been the starting fullback for the Cleveland Browns in 1946 except for one thing, Marion Motley. Motley was probably the best fullback in football in 1946, and no one was going to beat him out as the starting fullback for Cleveland in any of the AAFC years or in 1950. Therefore, Smith backed up Motley at fullback and I believe at left linebacker as well. Still, the 30 year old Gaylon Smith was Cleveland's 4th leading rusher in 1946 behind the 3 starting backs, Motley, Edgar Jones, and Don Greenwood.

An interesting pro football career for Gaylon Smith. A 2nd round draft choice for the Cleveland Rams in 1939, Smith played 4 years with that team starting in 1939. The first couple of seasons with the Rams, Gaylon played in the Rams single wing backfield. The Rams later went to the T-formation and Smith was the starting fullback for the Cleveland Rams in 1942 averaging 4 yards per rush and intercepting 4 passes on defense that year. After that year, Gaylon did military service until World War II ended.

After the war in 1946, the Rams moved to Los Angeles and Gaylon was one of the 5 Rams that opted to stay in Cleveland and play for the new Cleveland Browns. Smith only played one year for the Browns, but got some good playing time for Cleveland's new team filling in for Marion Motley at fullback and linebacker and may have even helped out at the middle linebacker position if he was needed there, but I don't know about that.

In 1946, Gaylon Smith carried the ball 62 times for 240 yards and caught 7 passes for 73 yards and scored 5 TD's and made one interception. Not bad for a 30 year old reserve fullback and linebacker who had been away at war for three years.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

Paul Brown had kind of a "Midas touch" even before he was head coach and general manager of the Cleveland Browns. He was famous as a high school football coach at Massilon where in 9 years, his teams only lost 8 games (5 in the first 2 years). At Ohio State, his 2nd year team in 1942 was national champions. He also had some pretty good teams at Great Lakes Naval Training Center when he was in the U.S. Navy during World War II.

Brown remembered players that played for him and against him during those years, and after getting his job as the coach of the new Cleveland Browns in 1946, he built his team mostly with players that he knew from his high school, college, and navy teams. He knew Otto Graham and Marion Motley as opponents from those years as well as some others, but most as players from his own teams as well as nine players that had already played in the NFL (including 5 former Rams players who refused to move to Los Angeles with the rest of the Rams).

Anyway, Paul Brown was to be so successful for Cleveland that he was considered by most to be far and away the best coach in pro football during the 1950's and probably the late 1940's by many. Brown did things a lot differently from the pro football coaches that came before him. Rather than scrimmaging most of the time, Brown did a lot of classroom work and stressed learning the plays. He basically invented the playbook.

Paul Brown took film study to a new level, with coaches breaking down films during the off-season. So, the coaching staff would know in greater detail what was going on in the football games.

I have read what players from unsuccessful teams have said, and a common theme that ran among them was that the teams were not well organized and players were standing around a lot. Not a chance of that happening at Cleveland when Paul Brown was there (at least for 15 years). Browns teams were always well organized during the 1940's and 1950's and probably after that. Players have said that they always knew what they would be doing at all times.

Anyway, there are probably things that Brown was doing that I have no idea of, seeing that I am not a football coach, but he evidently was doing the right things for the most part. I believe that Paul Brown was the best coach in pro football from 1946 through about 1960, and that gave Cleveland another advantage over the Chicago Bears and anyone else in 1946.

Of course, Chicago had George Halas, considered a great football coach in his own right, but Halas was from the old school of thought. Halas evidently had a good eye for talent, and his teams were often loaded with good players, but Brown was doing things differently from the people like Halas, Lambeau, Owen, Flaherty, and others. Some now call Paul Brown the "Father of modern football" and few could beat him until they started to copy him.

So, Paul Brown gave Cleveland another advantage over the Chicago Bears in 1946, IMO.
Saban1
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Re: 1946 Super Bowl: Browns vs Bears

Post by Saban1 »

Here is another what if. What if Cleveland did not get the 5 Rams players in 1946? It could have happened. The Rams took the case to court to try to make the 5 players honor their contracts, but their contracts were with the Cleveland Rams, and not the Los Angeles Rams. The judge ruled in favor of the players, so they could stay in Cleveland.

It certainly helped to have 5 more veteran players, and good players, to play with the new Browns in 1946. So, let's go position by position to try to see what Cleveland would have done.

Center, Mike Scarry. I believe that the Browns would have had rookie Frank Gatski play center and maybe middle linebacker as well. Considering how good Gatski turned out to be, then I would guess that Frank Gatski would have done well enough as a rookie, and probably was planned to be the starter until the Browns found that they were fortunate enough to get the Rams players.

Tom Colella at left defensive halfback. Tom led the league with 10 interceptions in 1946, so he did really well for Cleveland, but the Browns had Ray Terrell and a couple of other guys that may have filled the position, like Bill Lund or Edgar Jones.

Don Greenwood at right halfback. Ray Terrell, Bill Lund, Gene Fekete, Bob Steuber, or one of the 5 players that would have made the team if not for the Rams players.

Chet Adams at OT or DT. Cleveland had Lou Rymkus and Ernie Blandin at tackle positions along with rookie Lou Groza and Len Simonetti off the taxi squad, who was activated for the championship game in 1946. Also, maybe one of the 5 players who would have made the team without the Rams players. Of course, there was Jim Daniell, who started at left tackle, but was fired a few days before the championship game.


Gaylon Smith, who backed up Marion Motley at fullback and probably left linebacker. It was good to have Gaylon there, but I am sure that Brown would have found someone else if they did not have Smith, like Fekete, Steuber, or one of the five that would have been on the team.

That is a point. Without the 5 Rams players, five other players would have been on the team. Who would they have been? Maybe all rookies, or it's possible that the Cleveland staff might have gotten a veteran or two that was cut from another team or wasn't signed by anyone yet.

The fact that the Cleveland Browns were so dominant in 1946 indicates to me that they would have made the necessary adjustments to still be the best in their league, or in any league, at least by the end of the year. There still would have been too much talent, and too much Paul Brown, Otto Graham, Marion Motley, Mac Speedie. Dante Lavelli, Bill Willis, Lou Rymkus, Lou Saban, etc. etc. etc.

It sure helped to have those Rams players in 1946. It was like an unexpected bonus. I don't think that it was originally in the Browns plans to have those players on the team, but it helped.
Last edited by Saban1 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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