Lets look at the Pro Football HOF class of 2008. A very strange class overall, but its also here where we start getting into the borderline "edgerusher" guys. Fred Dean gets in, based on some vague "innovator" argument (IIRC). I don't think Dean is a strong selection, but whatever. Also, Andre Tippett gets in. Maybe its a disservice to call Tippett an "edgerusher", as he was a great all-around player for a few years, but he made his rep with his sacks. For a few years (1984-1986?) Tippett was the AFC's answer to Lawrence Taylor, but I was very surprised when Tippett was enshrined.
In 2009, Derrick Thomas gets in. I always felt that Thomas was a bit overrated, but figured his Hall of Fame status was inevitable.
2010 gives us Rickey Jackson. I think this is a great choice, and is the essence of the Pro Football HOF...a somewhat-overlooked great player getting his due. But again, most people would probably consider Jackson to be a borderline choice.
2011 and its Richard Dent's turn. Again, I was very surprised that Dent got in at all, and that he got in before several other "better" edgerusher candidates is amazing to me.
Chris Doleman is the 2012 edgerusher. Hard to argue with his resume...stats, awards, longevity. Not in the Reggie White/Bruce Smith class, but a good choice, IMO.
Charles Haley gets in for 2015. Once again, I am very surprised that Haley gets in, especially ahead of some other "edgerusher" candidates like Kevin Greene.
So, what do you think of how the HOF has handled the recent edgerusher candidates? Have they enshrined too many? Too few? The wrong ones?
"Edgerushers" and the HOF
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JohnTurney
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Re: "Edgerushers" and the HOF
I think they got the order wrong, but that's just a matter of who gets in when. However, the arguments made for the players were odd in two players cases. One was Fred Dean. The SF voter pitched the "elephant" position as "innovative" and that Fred Dean was an "innovator" because he came in on third downs. I could never pin the voter down on who they thought about not being an every down player. My understanding is they thought that Dean was the first to be an inpact player as a designated rusher. But, as we all know, that is false.
The DPR began in late-1960s and hit critical mass in 1977 when Pat Toomay and Tony McGee were doing great things. But also, in 1980 Claude Humphrey and Cedrick Hardman were DPRs on Super Bowl teams. If anything, Dean emulated them. Dean was All-Pro and NFC DPOY so he was first to get "honors". So, he was not innovative in the DPR position,
As far as the elephant, it's convoluted. First, Elephant was not a position it was the name for the 4 downlineman defense, the position Haley played and then Tim Harris then Rickey jackson, then Kevin Greene was the "Whip" the weak end. But Elephant is what the 49er press releases called it, likely to give it a "name".
But in 1983 Dean tried to play 3-4 OLBer and then move to 40 end or "whip" on passing downs, as a way to keep the same front 7 in, but it failed Dean wasn't good enough as a linebacker to play that position on run downs, so he went back to what he did in 1981-82 and did that to the end. In 1985 I think the "elephant/whip thing came about but in 1985 Dean was not effective.
So, the things that Dean was credited with as "innovative" in the presentation were not accurate. He was not innovatrive as a DPR, and he was not very good as the whip/elephant. Haley was, Harris was, Jackson was, Greene was.
The best things on Dean's resume are pro personnel points, how fast he was, how naturally strong he was. But he was small, but able to play the run okay, in SD that is. To me, in comes down to whether part-time players are HOF worthy and people can have differing views on that, but Dean was excellent as a 4-3 RDE in San Diego and was effective as a DPR from 1981-84 (82 less so, and 84 was holdout year).
The other odd arguments were about Dent, but that's another story.
The DPR began in late-1960s and hit critical mass in 1977 when Pat Toomay and Tony McGee were doing great things. But also, in 1980 Claude Humphrey and Cedrick Hardman were DPRs on Super Bowl teams. If anything, Dean emulated them. Dean was All-Pro and NFC DPOY so he was first to get "honors". So, he was not innovative in the DPR position,
As far as the elephant, it's convoluted. First, Elephant was not a position it was the name for the 4 downlineman defense, the position Haley played and then Tim Harris then Rickey jackson, then Kevin Greene was the "Whip" the weak end. But Elephant is what the 49er press releases called it, likely to give it a "name".
But in 1983 Dean tried to play 3-4 OLBer and then move to 40 end or "whip" on passing downs, as a way to keep the same front 7 in, but it failed Dean wasn't good enough as a linebacker to play that position on run downs, so he went back to what he did in 1981-82 and did that to the end. In 1985 I think the "elephant/whip thing came about but in 1985 Dean was not effective.
So, the things that Dean was credited with as "innovative" in the presentation were not accurate. He was not innovatrive as a DPR, and he was not very good as the whip/elephant. Haley was, Harris was, Jackson was, Greene was.
The best things on Dean's resume are pro personnel points, how fast he was, how naturally strong he was. But he was small, but able to play the run okay, in SD that is. To me, in comes down to whether part-time players are HOF worthy and people can have differing views on that, but Dean was excellent as a 4-3 RDE in San Diego and was effective as a DPR from 1981-84 (82 less so, and 84 was holdout year).
The other odd arguments were about Dent, but that's another story.
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bachslunch
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Re: "Edgerushers" and the HOF
I think looking at the position they (purportedly in some cases) played makes at least some difference. Honors and sack numbers for all these players and a few others who might qualify (80s-90s):Bryan wrote:Lets look at the Pro Football HOF class of 2008. A very strange class overall, but its also here where we start getting into the borderline "edgerusher" guys. Fred Dean gets in, based on some vague "innovator" argument (IIRC). I don't think Dean is a strong selection, but whatever. Also, Andre Tippett gets in. Maybe its a disservice to call Tippett an "edgerusher", as he was a great all-around player for a few years, but he made his rep with his sacks. For a few years (1984-1986?) Tippett was the AFC's answer to Lawrence Taylor, but I was very surprised when Tippett was enshrined.
In 2009, Derrick Thomas gets in. I always felt that Thomas was a bit overrated, but figured his Hall of Fame status was inevitable.
2010 gives us Rickey Jackson. I think this is a great choice, and is the essence of the Pro Football HOF...a somewhat-overlooked great player getting his due. But again, most people would probably consider Jackson to be a borderline choice.
2011 and its Richard Dent's turn. Again, I was very surprised that Dent got in at all, and that he got in before several other "better" edgerusher candidates is amazing to me.
Chris Doleman is the 2012 edgerusher. Hard to argue with his resume...stats, awards, longevity. Not in the Reggie White/Bruce Smith class, but a good choice, IMO.
Charles Haley gets in for 2015. Once again, I am very surprised that Haley gets in, especially ahead of some other "edgerusher" candidates likeT Kevin Greene.
So, what do you think of how the HOF has handled the recent edgerusher candidates? Have they enshrined too many? Too few? The wrong ones?
OLBs
*Andre Tippett: 2/5/80s (100)
*Rickey Jackson: 3/6/none (128)
*Lawrence Taylor: 9/10/80s (132.5)
+Kevin Greene: 3/5/90s (160)
*Derrick Thomas: 3/9/90s (126.5)
*Junior Seau: 8/12/90s (56.5)
*Charles Haley: 2/5/none (100.5)
Pat Swilling: 2/5/none (107.5)
DEs
*Bruce Smith: 9/11/80s90s (200)
*Reggie White: 10/13/80s90s (198)
*Chris Doleman: 3/8/90s (150.5)
Neil Smith: 1/6/90s (104.5)
*Richard Dent: 2/4/none (137.5)
Leslie O'Neal: 0/6/none (132.5)
*Fred Dean: 2/4/none (28 -- played several years before stat was kept)
Clyde Simmons: 2/2/none (121.5)
Sean Jones: 0/1/none (113)
Greg Townsend: 1/2/none (109.5)
Trace Armstrong: 0/1/none (106)
Jim Jeffcoat 0/0/none (102.5)
William Fuller: 0/4/none (100.5)
Dexter Manley: 1/1/none (97.5)
*means in HoF
+means will probably be elected to HoF this year
Haley could be considered either, but I put him at LB. Seau is in the HoF but not so much for his sack totals.
Looking at things this way, they've mostly done pretty well. Smith, White, and Doleman are clearly the best DEs of the bunch and belong in, with Dent and Dean clearly below them and decidedly more marginal. Smith and O'Neal strike me as at least comparable to Dent and probably better than Dean. Taylor and Seau are the best of the OLBs and belong in. Thomas may be the best of the next group down, but it's pretty close between him and Greene/Jackson/Tippett/Haley -- am thinking it's tough to argue for one and not the others. Swilling is about equal with these folks and might be a plausible choice here. Don't see a real case for anyone else listed that's not in. Listing Haley as a DE puts him slightly better than Dent, below the top three but perhaps the fourth best choice.
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bachslunch
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Re: "Edgerushers" and the HOF
If the issue is the order in which they were elected, I'm not especially concerned about that. In is in as far as I'm concerned.
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JohnTurney
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Re: "Edgerushers" and the HOF
I would agree about in is in, the order not so much, I think Greene has good chance this year see:bachslunch wrote:If the issue is the order in which they were elected, I'm not especially concerned about that. In is in as far as I'm concerned.
http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... -will.html
Dean had 93 sacks.. and I agree with out thoughts on the others. Neil Smith just got old fast. He was on his way, but then productivity fell. He was good versus the run. Clyde Simmons was a good player, too. Stood out to me.
Re: "Edgerushers" and the HOF
McGee was/is really underrated IMO. He was very productive with Bears, but for whatever reason Abe Gibron didn't like him and he ended up in New England for their big 1974 turnaround season. Gibbs/Beathard weren't dummies...they got McGee in 1982. At age 33, McGee had 6.5 sacks in essentially half a season as a DPR, then at age 34 he had 10 sacks in 1983 as a DPR. He posted some clips of himself on YouTube, and seems like a very interesting story.JohnTurney wrote:The DPR began in late-1960s and hit critical mass in 1977 when Pat Toomay and Tony McGee were doing great things.
Re: "Edgerushers" and the HOF
Thanks for the posting. Good to see a side-by-side comparison. I agree with most of what you said. I think there is a bit more separation in the OLB group...I'd have Taylor/Seau as HOF locks, Greene/Thomas/Jackson as HOFers, then I'd have Tippett and Haley a step below as borderline HOFers, with Tippett slightly above Haley for being "better" at his peak.bachslunch wrote:I think looking at the position they (purportedly in some cases) played makes at least some difference. Honors and sack numbers for all these players and a few others who might qualify (80s-90s):
OLBs
*Andre Tippett: 2/5/80s (100)
*Rickey Jackson: 3/6/none (128)
*Lawrence Taylor: 9/10/80s (132.5)
+Kevin Greene: 3/5/90s (160)
*Derrick Thomas: 3/9/90s (126.5)
*Junior Seau: 8/12/90s (56.5)
*Charles Haley: 2/5/none (100.5)
Pat Swilling: 2/5/none (107.5)
DEs
*Bruce Smith: 9/11/80s90s (200)
*Reggie White: 10/13/80s90s (198)
*Chris Doleman: 3/8/90s (150.5)
Neil Smith: 1/6/90s (104.5)
*Richard Dent: 2/4/none (137.5)
Leslie O'Neal: 0/6/none (132.5)
*Fred Dean: 2/4/none (28 -- played several years before stat was kept)
Clyde Simmons: 2/2/none (121.5)
Sean Jones: 0/1/none (113)
Greg Townsend: 1/2/none (109.5)
Trace Armstrong: 0/1/none (106)
Jim Jeffcoat 0/0/none (102.5)
William Fuller: 0/4/none (100.5)
Dexter Manley: 1/1/none (97.5)
*means in HoF
+means will probably be elected to HoF this year
Haley could be considered either, but I put him at LB. Seau is in the HoF but not so much for his sack totals.
Looking at things this way, they've mostly done pretty well. Smith, White, and Doleman are clearly the best DEs of the bunch and belong in, with Dent and Dean clearly below them and decidedly more marginal. Smith and O'Neal strike me as at least comparable to Dent and probably better than Dean. Taylor and Seau are the best of the OLBs and belong in. Thomas may be the best of the next group down, but it's pretty close between him and Greene/Jackson/Tippett/Haley -- am thinking it's tough to argue for one and not the others. Swilling is about equal with these folks and might be a plausible choice here. Don't see a real case for anyone else listed that's not in. Listing Haley as a DE puts him slightly better than Dent, below the top three but perhaps the fourth best choice.
I loved Dexter Manley when he played...thought he would have more pro bowls. I was surprised to see how many sacks Clyde Simmons accumulated. He was a fine player (and Michael Jordan's rival in HS hoops), but I didn't realize how consistently good he was.
My main hangup is that Kevin Greene is still waiting to be enshrined, but if he goes in this year then that solves that. I have two other issues. First, I don't think Dean, Dent or Haley are HOFers, and I probably wouldn't have put in Tippett either (although IMO he is a stronger candidate than the other three). Second, this might be an apples to orange comparison, but if you are going to put in Tippett then I don't see how you can keep Randy Gradishar out of Canton. Tippett had 'only' 10 seasons as a starter, Gradishar had 9. Tippett's last 4 years as a starter were good but clearly below his peak, whereas Gradishar continued to be a great player up until he retired.
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bachslunch
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Re: "Edgerushers" and the HOF
Re the Tippett/Gradishar comparison, there is a bit of an apples-oranges issue given that Tippett played OLB and Gradishar played ILB. But it's a fair point to make otherwise. Gradishar's honors are 4/7/none, plenty good enough for enshrinement, and I think he belongs in. There are three things that may have caused problems for him with the HoF voters:
-he's not on an all-decade team because his career straddles the 70s and 80s.
-he didn't become a finalist until fairly late in his candidacy. He's the kind of player who likely needed several years marinating on the ballot before getting in (kind of like Harry Carson) and he didn't have that luxury.
-purportedly one of his strongest arguments was a high career tackle total, but Denver was notoriously generous assigning them and the voters knew that. It's no good presenting an argument voters know is bogus, though bogus arguments that get past them apparently can work ("Bob Hayes was a pioneer with his speed at WR and forced invention of the zone defense" and "Fred Dean was a pioneer of the elephant style dedicated pass rusher," both of which apparently fooled enough voters to get them elected).
-he's not on an all-decade team because his career straddles the 70s and 80s.
-he didn't become a finalist until fairly late in his candidacy. He's the kind of player who likely needed several years marinating on the ballot before getting in (kind of like Harry Carson) and he didn't have that luxury.
-purportedly one of his strongest arguments was a high career tackle total, but Denver was notoriously generous assigning them and the voters knew that. It's no good presenting an argument voters know is bogus, though bogus arguments that get past them apparently can work ("Bob Hayes was a pioneer with his speed at WR and forced invention of the zone defense" and "Fred Dean was a pioneer of the elephant style dedicated pass rusher," both of which apparently fooled enough voters to get them elected).