I've read that in 1915 the scoring team would receive the kickoff(I guess this was like a basketball "possession" rule), I know that by 1918 that wasn't the case. Does anyone know what year it changed?
Thanks
Another old rules question
Re: Another old rules question
The scoring team didn't always receive the kickoff in those days. The rule was that the team that gave up the touchdown or field goal had the option of receiving or kicking off, just like the team that wins the coin toss today. And since in many cases teams didn't have a very good chance of driving the length of the field, they often chose to kick off and hope the other team would fumble in its own territory.
Also, I don't think that rule disappeared in 1918. I'm pretty sure it was still on the books throughout the 1920s, and maybe the 1930s too. It just gradually got to the point where the teams that just gave up points always wanted the ball back immediately, and I wouldn't be surprised if the rule wasn't officially changed until 1940 or so.
Also, I don't think that rule disappeared in 1918. I'm pretty sure it was still on the books throughout the 1920s, and maybe the 1930s too. It just gradually got to the point where the teams that just gave up points always wanted the ball back immediately, and I wouldn't be surprised if the rule wasn't officially changed until 1940 or so.
Re: Another old rules question
Thanks Bob, that lines up with what I have read on the immediate or quick punt outs. I'm just not clear if they punted on the same play or the next? Meaning, if they received a kickoff or punt and wanted to punt it back did they do it during the same play or have to wait until the next? I would assume the next because there would be numerous players offside but I'm not gonna take anything for granted when dealing with old-time football.
Thanks again,
Doug
Thanks again,
Doug
Re: Another old rules question
Yes, it was legal to catch a punt, then punt it right back, without waiting for the teams to line up again. It didn't happen that often, but I've certainly read accounts of games when Jim Thorpe did it, and I'm sure others did too. It was like a quick kick without the bother of waiting for the next play. I think that's another rule that was still on the books until fairly recently, like the 1960s or '70s, although by then I imagine nobody had done it for decades.
Re: Another old rules question
In the famous Illinois-Michigan 1924 contest, Red Grange scored four touchdowns in the first twelve minutes. The reason why Grange was able to score so quickly was because Michigan chose to kick off after each of Grange's touchdowns. They struck to their normal strategy of playing for field position, with the hope that Illinois would made a mistake. Instead, Red kept breaking long touchdowns.
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SixtiesFan
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Re: Another old rules question
Exactly. This probably confuses some people when they read about this game.conace21 wrote:In the famous Illinois-Michigan 1924 contest, Red Grange scored four touchdowns in the first twelve minutes. The reason why Grange was able to score so quickly was because Michigan chose to kick off after each of Grange's touchdowns. They struck to their normal strategy of playing for field position, with the hope that Illinois would made a mistake. Instead, Red kept breaking long touchdowns.
Re: Another old rules question
The punt-out, also called a kick-out, was after a touchdown. Either you tried the point after from the point opposite where the ball went into the end zone (remember the goal posts were on the goal line), I think two yards out (three in 1927) was where it was spotted, and it had to be place kicked (drop kicking the blimp ball was easier). Or the scoring team could punt-out. A free kick to better center the ball. But if mishandled the other team could recover and start play from there. Rutgers botched one and lost a big game (somewhere around 1917) and so many bellyached that that rule was changed in 1919, for 1920 season (NCAA). Walter Camp in his syndicated column said it made things fairer, but in a column in New York Times actually disliked the rule change, saying that centering the XP attempt would make it near automatic.
Some of the rules mentioned have not been changed and some that have, it's been pretty recently. The NFL changed the rule where one could drop kick past the line of scrimmage and even though no one had did it in decades they changed the rule a few years ago.
I actually looked through my kicking page. Some will surprise you:
Aha! • • The scored upon team has the option to kickoff or receive. This is rule in NFL and National Federation of High School rules (NFHS). The NCAA changed this rule in 2003, the scoring team being required to kick. The last time this rule was used to kick off after being scored upon is undetermined so far.. When Georgia Tech beat Cumberland 212-0, it was used a lot. Cumberland figured kicking off gave the Rambling Wreck worse field position than when Cumberland fumbled or punted after they received a kickoff and went 4 and out.
So it could still happen in the NFL!! Unless someone knows better. Why bother changing it when no one would do it?
In Canada and in the CFL, they still can punt a punt back while play continues.
Here is a video of an Canadian Football League example. There are 4 kicks on this play. It is the last play of a tie game, and relates to how Canadian kicking teams can score a point if the kicked ball is not brought out of the end zone by run or kick:
http://youtu.be/d5BFaykcxGg
The NFHSA allowed field goals on kick-offs until 1948. It may still be a rule in Philadelphia PAL League/
On 9/25/2015, Luis Aranda of Robert E. Lee school of Midland Texas kicked an extra point that bounced off a referee's head and went over the crossbar and through the uprights, for the point. See it here:
http://video.businessinsider.com/5819bd ... c3b2e.webm
Until 1932, on a kick-off or free-kick, the receiving could send 10 players running back to where the kick was caught and form a flying wedge on the return, a “thundering herd”.
On 11/11/1911, Princeton beat Dartmouth when two drop kicks, by DeWitt, bounced over the crossbars and were called good for 3 points. The referee said there was no rule against it. In 1912 there was such a rule
An additional offensive kick was the “quarterback-kick”, or onside-kick from scrimmage. 1st used by Minnesota in 1892; it was the forerunner of the forward pass. A form of quick kick, it was usually kicked just after the center snap as the quarterback dropped back. The QB or any back behind him could recover a kicked ball. Coach George Woodruff of Penn also came up with the QB-kick in 1892. The quarter-back would kick the ball and his backs would try to catch it in the air or pounce on it after it hit the ground. The first quarterback kick by Penn was by Bucky Vail against Lafayette 11/16/1892. Also called an offside kick at times, it was not totally eliminated until 1922.
On punting back a punt I found only one example:
Oct. 22, 1933- Harry Newman of New York Giants punted to Shipwreck Kelly of the Brooklyn Dodgers who punted it back to the Giants who lost a yard in the exchange.
When the goal posts were on the goal line, a punt out of the end zone that hit the crossbar or goal posts and bounced back and out of end zone was a safety.
In Canada, it is illegal to kickoff with a drop kick
Some of the rules mentioned have not been changed and some that have, it's been pretty recently. The NFL changed the rule where one could drop kick past the line of scrimmage and even though no one had did it in decades they changed the rule a few years ago.
I actually looked through my kicking page. Some will surprise you:
Aha! • • The scored upon team has the option to kickoff or receive. This is rule in NFL and National Federation of High School rules (NFHS). The NCAA changed this rule in 2003, the scoring team being required to kick. The last time this rule was used to kick off after being scored upon is undetermined so far.. When Georgia Tech beat Cumberland 212-0, it was used a lot. Cumberland figured kicking off gave the Rambling Wreck worse field position than when Cumberland fumbled or punted after they received a kickoff and went 4 and out.
So it could still happen in the NFL!! Unless someone knows better. Why bother changing it when no one would do it?
In Canada and in the CFL, they still can punt a punt back while play continues.
Here is a video of an Canadian Football League example. There are 4 kicks on this play. It is the last play of a tie game, and relates to how Canadian kicking teams can score a point if the kicked ball is not brought out of the end zone by run or kick:
http://youtu.be/d5BFaykcxGg
The NFHSA allowed field goals on kick-offs until 1948. It may still be a rule in Philadelphia PAL League/
On 9/25/2015, Luis Aranda of Robert E. Lee school of Midland Texas kicked an extra point that bounced off a referee's head and went over the crossbar and through the uprights, for the point. See it here:
http://video.businessinsider.com/5819bd ... c3b2e.webm
Until 1932, on a kick-off or free-kick, the receiving could send 10 players running back to where the kick was caught and form a flying wedge on the return, a “thundering herd”.
On 11/11/1911, Princeton beat Dartmouth when two drop kicks, by DeWitt, bounced over the crossbars and were called good for 3 points. The referee said there was no rule against it. In 1912 there was such a rule
An additional offensive kick was the “quarterback-kick”, or onside-kick from scrimmage. 1st used by Minnesota in 1892; it was the forerunner of the forward pass. A form of quick kick, it was usually kicked just after the center snap as the quarterback dropped back. The QB or any back behind him could recover a kicked ball. Coach George Woodruff of Penn also came up with the QB-kick in 1892. The quarter-back would kick the ball and his backs would try to catch it in the air or pounce on it after it hit the ground. The first quarterback kick by Penn was by Bucky Vail against Lafayette 11/16/1892. Also called an offside kick at times, it was not totally eliminated until 1922.
On punting back a punt I found only one example:
Oct. 22, 1933- Harry Newman of New York Giants punted to Shipwreck Kelly of the Brooklyn Dodgers who punted it back to the Giants who lost a yard in the exchange.
When the goal posts were on the goal line, a punt out of the end zone that hit the crossbar or goal posts and bounced back and out of end zone was a safety.
In Canada, it is illegal to kickoff with a drop kick
Re: Another old rules question
Doug Flutie, who must have poured through the rule book more than Bill Belichick, used to practice drop picks in his first stint with New England. He shared an idea with Dr. Z in a game of "Ways to win a game that coaches would never think of." Down by 2 from midfield with time for one more play. Throw a 20 yard pass to your kicker in the middle of the field and have him dropkick a FG.
When Flutie came back to the NFL, he still practiced kicks before games to test the wind in Buffalo. Dr. Z called the NFL to check the legality of Flutie's idea. Joe Browne told him that it was legal when Flutie brought it up, but in 1991, the league changed the rule so dropkicks had to take place behind the line of scrimmage. I wonder why the NFL thought to address this when there hadn't been a successful dropkick since 1948 (in the AAFC.)
When Flutie came back to the NFL, he still practiced kicks before games to test the wind in Buffalo. Dr. Z called the NFL to check the legality of Flutie's idea. Joe Browne told him that it was legal when Flutie brought it up, but in 1991, the league changed the rule so dropkicks had to take place behind the line of scrimmage. I wonder why the NFL thought to address this when there hadn't been a successful dropkick since 1948 (in the AAFC.)